Co-ordinates

[jorwat]

If you allow co-ordinates to be four dimensional, then (0,0,0,0) and (0,0,0,1) will be in the same place, but different times. For example, one could be here now, and the other could be here a second later.

Therefore (0,0,0,0,0) and (0,0,0,0,1) must be in the same place and time, but a different time line. For example, in one I could be a millionaire, and in the other, I could be homeless.

So what must the difference be between (0,0,0,0,0,0) and (0,0,0,0,0,1)?

[Rob Bryanton]

Excellent question, Jorwat. Let's follow this way of describing my framework for imagining the dimensions.

If you accept spacetime co-ordinates to be four dimensional, then (0,0,0,0) and (0,0,0,1) will be in the same place, but a different time (for the purposes of this discussion, let's ignore the fact that every celestial body, including the planet we're on, tends to be moving and rotating and orbiting and doing so within an infinitely expanding system, etc.). For example, one co-ordinate set could be the tip of my nose now, and the other could be the tip of my nose a second later. Moving from (0,0,0,0) to (0,0,0,1) would require you to move through all the steps between that 0 and that 1, and in quantum physics the discrete packets moving along that line are called quanta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanta.

Therefore (0,0,0,0,0) and (0,0,0,0,1) must be in the same place and time, but a different time line. For example, in one timeline Elvis is still alive, while in the timeline we're on he died thirty years ago. According to my framework for imagining reality, this is the fifth dimension. How would we imagine the quanta that get us from that fifth co-ordinate being a 0 to it being a 1? At first this appears to be binary - either Elvis is alive or he isn't. But to imagine that at this instant in spacetime, the only thing we were now going to change was whether Elvis is alive or not, we would again have to imagine that we are moving through many intermediate steps - those steps would include many quanta, and would have to pass through Elvis died 20 years ago, Elvis died 10 years ago, Elvis is still alive right now. But of course once you arrived at this new (0,0,0,0,0,1), it would be only of the many possible outcomes - you could be in the one where Elvis is alive but in a coma, or you could be in the one where Elvis is on tour and the Rolling Stones are opening for him, and so on.

Almost a hundred years ago, Kaluza proved, and Einstein eventually agreed, that our universe is defined with five, rather than four dimensions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_dimension . For some reason this fact has never really made its way into the mainstream public's consciousness. So now, what is the next degree of freedom afforded by the sixth dimension? What is the possible difference between six zeroes (0,0,0,0,0,0) and five zeroes and a one (0,0,0,0,0,1)?

Let's recap: we've defined the first three zeroes as the tip of my nose, an abritrary x,y,z spatial co-ordinate. The fourth zero is an arbritrary point in time, which we'll call "this instant", but of course even speaking those two words forces us to pass through many such instants. The fifth zero defines the logical point resulting from the previous choices, which is like Feynman's "sum over paths" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum_over_paths : so (0,0,0,0,0) could be defined as the universe where Elvis died thirty years ago, or we could arbritrarily define (0,0,0,0,0) as a version of our universe where everything else is the same, but Elvis is still rockin'. Like the observed rather than collapsed wavefunction of Everett's multiverse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation , a particular five zeroes (0,0,0,0,0) co-ordinate could be one or the other, but not both.

"Not both" is the key idea here, because it ties into concepts like quantum computing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_information and strange thought experiments like Schrodinger's Cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrodinger%27s_Cat. So what would our six zeroes (0,0,0,0,0,0) co-ordinate allow us to define that our five zeroes (0,0,0,0,0) co-ordinate could not? The sixth zero would allow us to select an arbritrary co-ordinate where Elvis, like Mr. Schrodinger's cat, is simultaneously alive and dead, which is the strange world of quantum indeterminacy and quantum superposition, and what I am defining as the sixth dimension. If we were to define that as six zeroes (0,0,0,0,0,0), then five zeroes and a one (0,0,0,0,0,1) would be a part of the multiverse where some other outcome was simultaneously true: you are both a millionaire and a homeless person at the same time, for instance.

Each dimension that you add adds a piece of information that was inaccessible if you stayed within the dimension below... something that I have described in other forum entries here as the "you can't get there from here" list for whatever the current dimension you're examining might be.

This was a long answer to a short and well-phrased question. I hope I have helped to explain my thinking in a way that was useful to you, jorwat.

Thanks for writing,

Rob

[diMaggio]

Hi Rob, maybe I didn't fully understood.

Currently this is the picture I have in my head:
The sixth dimension is the "space" through which one would "fold" the fifth dimension to travel from one timeline A to another timeline B.

All the different timelines are contained inside the fifth dimension though.
Therefore the fifth coordinate represents a different timeline.

Although being a different timeline it still would be a timeline from the same universe (same initial conditions).

So my point is:
Wouldn't the sixth coordinate then just represent another - parallel - universe, one with other initial conditions (another point in the seventh dimension)?


Btw, I just bought your book and it's very interesting. Nice work.^^

[Rob Bryanton]

Thanks for the kind words diMaggio, always nice to hear from someone who likes the book.

It sounds like you understand where I'm coming from. I agree, a different-initial-conditions universe would be a different "point" in the seventh dimension, but that means for this logic to work then we would be talking about the difference between a seven-co-ordinate system and a six co-ordinate system. Let's see if I can clarify this a bit more.

I had never tried to express the tenth dimension idea using the co-ordinate idea jorwat asked for, but it was an interesting exercise. The tricky part here when you describe it this way is to keep the concept of an entire dimension separate from the "co-ordinate within the dimension": so (0,0,0) refers to a specific position in three-dimensional space, it does not refer to the entirety of the third dimension. Likewise, six zeroes refers to a specific location within the sixth dimension, not the sixth dimension in its entirety.

So each quantum slice of space in a certain state, placed one after another becomes fourth-dimensional spacetime. Each branching choice taken (or "observed" in the quantum mechanics meaning of the word) becomes the fifth dimension... and the fifth dimension is where we really are according to Einstein and Kaluza). The choices not taken would only remain available within the sixth dimension. It's like the undulating snake image from the animation - imagining the multi-dimensional body that simultaneously represents every choice taken/not taken throughout your life could only be within the sixth dimension, because some choices not taken within the fifth dimension make the outcomes that follow from that choice no longer available from that point thereafter within that fifth dimension.

To continue the analogy one more step then, let's say that six zeroes (0,0,0,0,0,0) represents this instant in time and a particular set of choices taken/not taken, and five zeroes and a one (0,0,0,0,0,1) represents some other set of choice taken/not taken (the last 0 could represent our universe and all the other universes where Elvis is dead, while the 1 could represent all the possible universes where Elvis is still alive, for instance).

But no amount of choices, free will, or observed/collapsed wavefunction can get us from these positions to the position where the basic cosmological constants of our universe change: all of the available options are limited within the six co-ordinates. To get to a different-initial-conditions universe, then, would be where we require the seventh co-ordinate: So seven zeroes (0,0,0,0,0,0,0) would be a specific location in space, time and wavefunction within the universe we live in, while six zeroes and a one (0,0,0,0,0,0,1) would be the corresponding exact location in space,time and wavefunction within some other different-initial-conditions universe, with different cosmological constants than our own.

If you've followed all this, you've arrived at the same conclusion I reach in the book using (to me at least) a less obscure way of explaining the same concept: this shows there could be multiverses existing all around us but which are inaccessible/decoherent/invisible/undetectable to our own.

Thanks for writing!

Rob

[Daniel McQueen]

Rob, a curiousity about your Elvis scenario:

In our time-line (x, y, z, 16.07.2007), Elvis was born in our past and died in our past. If one rewound the clock and moved backwards in time to the point where Elvis was conceived (x, y, z, 15.03.1934, give or take a few days) and then by some external means, coaxed a different sperm to fertilize the egg, we would be on another distinct time-line, one where Elvis was never born. However, the current 4D quad-ordinates would be the same (x, y, z, 16.07.2007) Only when adding the fifth dimension (x, y, z, 16.07.2007, w) would we find a difference. Perhaps in our time-line w(0), Elvis is dead and in another w(1), Elvis never existed. Perhaps even in another w(2), Elvis is still alive and is president of the USA, having never gone into music.

However, any time-line produced by (x, y, z, t, w) produces a distinct answer to the equation {Elvis = Dead OR Alive}.

To jump to the sixth dimension, one travels between two non-intersecting, non-parallel 4D time-lines. Not connected to each other, these time-lines could not share any of the same properties or else they'd immediately intersect and collapse into a single 5D plane.

My coffee-deprived point is that I doubt that in any other 6D slice of history, Elvis or any of his ancestors could exist, as said existence would undoubtedly cause that time-line to intersect ours.

Ideas?

[olexrina]

Why is it that many of the answers cite wikipedia as a source? If I used wikipedia as a source for any of my papers, the instructor would not accept it, and possibly laugh me out of his/her office.

[StrataFire]

First you have to alter the standard negative/positive scale to reflect the operations dimensionally because infinity or "true infinity" has to be represented with a separate solving for "zero" or in other words zero has to be assigned a value to make it work properly so the "new scale" is:

0987654321{+}0.0(-)1234567890 whereas there is a negative zero and a positive zero with the period (.) representing "true infinity" which never, ever repeats its spatial occupation as distance is linearly represented by the observer versus the observed....

[Stuart7]

I maintain a slightly different approach to those stated above. There are two ways to express a state within dimensional space. One is that of a static object another is motion through any number of the specified planes.

In the case of motion, then a starting point (or dimension zero) is required to measure out from. However to merely specify an existance, then I do not believe that this is neccessary. And by my understanding, that renders what has been described on this forum as the sixth and seventh dimensions may all fall within the limits of the fith dimension. I am not a professional in the world of theoretical physics, nor anything truthfully beyond an amateur quantum mechanic. So forgive me for maintaining a simplistic view of this multi-dimensional conversation.
My interpretation of the sixth dimension is the location of the observer. Where multiple viewpoints can lead to the realisation that one and two are in fact the same thing just observed from different viewpoints. I forget which scientist originally formulated this theory but it is one with which I have been able to realise (or epiphany for want of a better word) for fleeting moments but not long enough to flesh out in full.
Below is the ratonale which I scribbled out this morning. Any pointers to expand my own theory or corrections to put me back on the right track if I am going off on a tangent would be much appreciated.


All theoretical sciences are based on the perceptions of an observer. As such I am an observer, but since everything around me is a perception of what I can see, hear, sense and feel, then I am the only observer. Thus creating my own quantum reality.
Nothing in the world actually exists that I am not currently experiencing or observing. All matter and energy beyond my current observations is in a state of quantum, temporal and spatial uncertainty (see Schroedinger).
Therefore I am alone and any other people are merely an extension of my own observations of the world around me. I am thus my own reality, and if sentience is a measurable degree I am unique in that parameter as well since there can be only the one observer at any given time. And that shall always be me.

As someone else makes observations around them then they are unique within there own reality. The definition of the fifth dimension or co-existing quantum realities within a multiverse, are not as distant from one another as commonly believed. Each reality is simply another observer, since no two observers can perceive the same event from exactly the same viewpoint within the accepted four initial dimensions.

Furthermore the number of possible realities can therefore be squared. Since every possible outcome of subatomic motion exists in a unique reality then every possible outcome is also observed by every possible observer in there own reality.

A separate degree of measurement within the fifth dimension is then required to separate between the infinite outcomes and the multitude of observers. (Or is the observer the definition of the sixth dimension)?

[Rob Bryanton]

http://imaginingthetenthdimension.blogs ... point.html

Hi Stuart7, thanks for the fascinating post. Gevin Giorbran (author of Everything Forever) and I had similar conversations about the first part of your message - he called it the "quantum isolation problem". In my blog entry You Are the Point (link above) I returned to an idea I've stated many times before - each of us is at the center of our own version of the universe, and your note arrives at a similar conclusion. So yes, I'm observing my universe and you're observing yours, but there are obviously many things that are the same about both of our universes, and the phrase "consensus reality" is often used to refer to that idea. With my project, I insist that our "now", your consciousness, just like mine, is a moving point within a fifth-dimensional probability space.

What are the extra dimensions beyond the fifth for then? They provide us ways to visualize how to get to the other parts of our reality that are not part of our probability space. The sixth dimension provides the versions of our universe that we can't observe from here, like the version where it's 2010 and the WTC towers are still standing in New York. The seventh dimension and above provides a way to get to other universes and information patterns that are completely different from our own universe. The tenth dimension provides a way to imagine the underlying symmetry state where all those possible patterns of information balance each other out into a big beautiful zero that is not empty, but full of all the other possibilities.

Thanks for writing!

Rob

[andrea38]

Hello!
In geometry, a coordinate system is a system which uses a set of numbers, or coordinates, to uniquely determine the position of a point or other geometric element.The order of the coordinates is significant and they are sometimes identified by their position in an ordered tuple and sometimes by a letter, as in 'the x-coordinate'. In elementary mathematics the coordinates are taken to be real numbers, but in more advanced applications coordinates can be taken to be complex numbers or elements of a more abstract system such as a commutative ring. The use of a coordinate system allows problems in geometry to be translated into problems about numbers and vice versa; this is the bases of analytic geometry.
Thanks....

[Slimjim]

If you allow co-ordinates to be four dimensional, then (0,0,0,0) and (0,0,0,1) will be in the same place, but different times. For example, one could be here now, and the other could be here a second later.

Therefore (0,0,0,0,0) and (0,0,0,0,1) must be in the same place and time, but a different time line. For example, in one I could be a millionaire, and in the other, I could be homeless.

So what must the difference be between (0,0,0,0,0,0) and (0,0,0,0,0,1)?

I'd like to point out that as soon as you get two things in the same dimension probability becomes a factor. As soon as probability becomes a factor so too does uncertainty.

Anyways the difference between (0,0,0,0,0,0) and (0,0,0,0,0,1) in my opinion would be exactly what you stated. "I." The difference would be another person. I like to think of 6D as "ego" Keeping in mind that mathematics can have infinite many representations of a 6D idea. Since most people assume they are 3 Dimensional beings there are infinite many ideas that could define 6D. People are actually 5 dimensional based on your senses. Too bad most people don't realise that emotion is a sense.

[joetraff]

Fully agree with you.
Emotion is a superior sense.