God or the multiverse?

[Forest]

I have sadly not had the time to read the above posts as I wanted but I really want to comment on this so here it is. If I may add in my small bit of input, it may be important to consider that you may not have to "choose" between two back and white choices. Though to except both ideas would limit you from having rigid religious beliefs, as a "christian" (this is the religion in the spotlight I think) you base your reasoning of faith. Meaning there do not have to be fine lines, there can be contradiction well the existence of "god" per say can still be firm in your mind. There can also still be many diffrent interpretations of "string theory" as well which allow more leniency in religious beliefs, that's the buety of a theory and idea, they may be bent according to ones perception. Though I personally believe everything can be bent by perception that's besides the point. Just though I would contribute my view on the subject!

P.S. Please excuse inconstancy in grammar if there is any, I'm in a bit of a hurry.

[Wind Walker]

It seems to me that some of the concepts that we find for God in the Bible are right on the money for a bunch of sheep herders and fishermen to have gotten right. In the Old Testament God calls Himself "I AM", and in the New Testament the "Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end".

The 10th dimension sounds like it could be heaven to me. It seems to possess all of the attributes necessary to qualify for a place that God could or would exist.

I know many of you aren't religious who are reading this, but for those of us that are, this is a fascinating look at a truth that is fundamental to our being able to understand Biblical concepts correctly through the lens of science.

Thanks Mr. Bryanton, this is fascinating stuff!!!

[StormKerr]

Well...
It seems that science has started the long process of eliminating religion. Mysticism and superstition are finally succumbing to the truth. It's like trying to herd cats or kill a family of cockroaches though, religion and ritual are so ingrained in the human psyche that it seems impossible to extricate ourselves from it.

The current incarnation of Christianity is simply a re-imagined form of ancient Roman and Greek religions. Christianity's God is a lot like Zeus. The story of Jesus was once told as the story of Hercules. Immaculately conceived, sent among men to perform miracles, given a series of tasks to complete in order to save mankind, etc., etc.

People who believe religion will say "It says in the Bible!" as if that is empirical evidence. They don't seem to realize that what they mean is "It says in my version of a modernized mistranslation of a manuscript that was reinterpreted over a thousand years ago from the original Greek Concordance which is not even the language that the people who were written about were speaking..."

All this fervor and fanaticism stems from one simple thing. Certain people seem to be unable or unwilling to consider an opposing viewpoint. It is a simple exercise to say "What if God doesn't exist?" and see where the line of logic and reason takes you.
"What if God exists and I am wrong about Him?"
These kinds of questions are too terrifying for a True Believer to contemplate. All they can do is suppress the doubt and raise their voices higher.
Only the scientific mind can come to any answers that are of any use. It is only the scientific mind that can ask all the necessary questions.
Questions like "Where was Jesus between the age of fifteen and thirty-three?"
"Why were the lessons of Jesus so similar to lessons of the Hindu religion?"
"Why does God always seem to demand that His 'chosen' kill and slaughter anyone who is not among the chosen?"
And on, and on, and on.

And yet there IS a need for spirituality. Science and religion can not live together, but Science and Spirituality are two sides of the same coin.

[Wind Walker]

Well...
It seems that science has started the long process of eliminating religion. Mysticism and superstition are finally succumbing to the truth. It's like trying to herd cats or kill a family of cockroaches though, religion and ritual are so ingrained in the human psyche that it seems impossible to extricate ourselves from it.

The current incarnation of Christianity is simply a re-imagined form of ancient Roman and Greek religions. Christianity's God is a lot like Zeus. The story of Jesus was once told as the story of Hercules. Immaculately conceived, sent among men to perform miracles, given a series of tasks to complete in order to save mankind, etc., etc.

People who believe religion will say "It says in the Bible!" as if that is empirical evidence. They don't seem to realize that what they mean is "It says in my version of a modernized mistranslation of a manuscript that was reinterpreted over a thousand years ago from the original Greek Concordance which is not even the language that the people who were written about were speaking..."

All this fervor and fanaticism stems from one simple thing. Certain people seem to be unable or unwilling to consider an opposing viewpoint. It is a simple exercise to say "What if God doesn't exist?" and see where the line of logic and reason takes you.
"What if God exists and I am wrong about Him?"
These kinds of questions are too terrifying for a True Believer to contemplate. All they can do is suppress the doubt and raise their voices higher.
Only the scientific mind can come to any answers that are of any use. It is only the scientific mind that can ask all the necessary questions.
Questions like "Where was Jesus between the age of fifteen and thirty-three?"
"Why were the lessons of Jesus so similar to lessons of the Hindu religion?"
"Why does God always seem to demand that His 'chosen' kill and slaughter anyone who is not among the chosen?"
And on, and on, and on.

And yet there IS a need for spirituality. Science and religion can not live together, but Science and Spirituality are two sides of the same coin.

You projected an awful lot that I didn't say or believe. Being a Christian doesn't mean that you don't embrace the truths that can be found and understood through the lens of science, actually the exact opposite is true because we can!

I can't speak for other religions, but Christianity is completely compatible with science so long as it (the faith) looks at things like this as a means to expand our understanding of the truth.

[StormKerr]

If you take a look at the history of the Catholic Church and the birth of Christianity you will find human error at every turn. The Christian religion has been used as a political tool, as a way to eliminate enemies, used to satisfy a misogynistic campaign of terror, and as a misguided excuse to grab power. The supposed "truth" of the church has been conveniently altered to suit the needs of those in power. King Henry the VIII changed the church forever just because he wanted a divorce. He had himself declared the head of the Church of England because he didn't want to bow to Papal authority.

And that is just one example among thousands. If the Christian religion was truly given to us by a higher being would it be subject to change at the whims of mortal man? Would not the God of the Old Testament have struck down Henry the VIII as a blasphemer? Do you believe that God sanctioned the torture and murder of over nine million women just because they practiced herbal medicine?

Do you really believe that a whale swallowed a man and carried him to shore? Do you believe that a woman was turned into a pillar of salt? Where do you find science in this kind of superstition? You may as well look for evidence of the talking fox from Aesop's Fables. In fact if you view the Bible in the context of Aesop's Fables you begin to see it for what it is. It is a series of morality tales designed to educate people of a medieval culture in the ways of peaceful, and cooperative interaction. It was desperately needed in an unjust and harsh society. Without the Bible, society may not have developed as it did.

Having said that, I know I will be blasted for stating this, but religion has been the single greatest roadblock to our species' advancement. At every turn religion has been used as an excuse to slaughter, rape, destroy, torture, and maim those who would not conform. Those who cast their eyes to the heavens and simply stated their observations. Throughout history the greatest amount of destruction has always been caused by those who believed that they were acting out the will of some higher being.

We will never know what secrets were in the library of Alexandria because of religion. What might Galileo have discovered if not imprisoned by the Catholic Church? How much would we know about medicine today if not for the Inquisition targeting women who were experts in the field?

Anyone who blindly excepts religion without researching it and asking hard questions can not be said to have a scientific mind. A blending of superstition and science is the hope of those advocates of Intelligent Design. The more I learn about the universe I live in, the more I am convinced that WE are the creators of God and religion, not the other way around.

[Millsley]

I understand your frustration StormKerr, but I can't fully agree with you. I believe that religion as an institution is what is used as an excuse to [insert terrible thing here]. Like you said in your statement immediately previous, it portrays a moral code for those who follow it. I think it goes a bit deeper than that, as I'm fairly positive that genuine religious experience allows its subject to observe something genuinely REAL, albeit the perception of this reality is skewed by the personal cultural chrysalis it is being viewed through. Religious institutions tend to build up around those gifted few who have a glance beyond the veil.

Regardless, all of the major religions have picked up on The Golden Rule... but having its collective herd follow this simple instruction is nearly impossible, especially when our fears and desires are played upon by a variety of self-interested forces in everyday life - often in the guise of standing for that religion's aims. This is where the institutional hazard comes in, as if most of its members are driven by the unconscious attachment to their religious identity. This is my personal opinion, but I don't think Jesus/God/Holy Spirit would be too happy with many of the words and actions of the religious right in the US today.

I just would like to see a balanced view of what religion has done and can do. There is no doubt that an individual can overcome their faults, face their fears or change their outlook on life for the better thanks to the helping hand of religion just as there is no doubt that religion has done legitimate harm to the advancement of humanity over the years... although if you want to look at the real culprit I would say that hierarchical power structures and economic control are far more primary and constantly employ religion as a handy means for an end. It just pains me to see the "religion is worthless, people who believe in any part of it are moronic" attitude of Richard Dawkins beyond the confines of his human suit.

[StormKerr]

I guess now is a good time to explain my view on the difference between religion and spirituality.

As I have said before, spirituality is the flip side of science. It is human nature to question, to be curious, and to expand our knowledge of ourselves and the world around us. This is done through both spiritual and scientific discovery.

Religion is the ritual that people enforce as a means to grant access to the spiritual. Things like-
A pope must intercede on our behalf to bring us closer to God,
We must sit, and kneel, and drink grape juice to save our souls,
Confessing our sins and saying sorry before we die will keep us from
burning in hell, etc., etc.

Spirituality is a deeply personal journey that can only take place inside the human heart. One must not look outside oneself to find a deeper meaning. If you DO look outside yourself, you have missed the point.

I do not say that religion as a whole is meaningless, only that blind devotion is dangerous and unhealthy. The Dali Lama said that any religion can be used as a tool to transform the human heart from one of self interest, into one that is compassionate.

For myself I have decided that Christianity is so flawed, and so full of holes, and contradictions that it is nearly impossible to separate the truth from the "myth" of Christianity. Because of this I have searched elsewhere for my own spiritual growth.

I have done the work. I have asked the hard questions and I have really spent a great deal of my life searching for my answers. I am at peace with my own conclusions and I feel well rounded and whole in a spiritual sense.

All too often I find myself trying to have a meaningful discussion with some Christian who hasn't even read the entire Bible. Many people don't know the history of the Christian faith, or choose to ignore the facts. Some claim that it simply must be taken on faith. One girl I knew always told me that she trusted her faith and that the answers would come with time. If you are not asking questions, how will you get the answers?

Maybe it is just the nature of the mob mentality? People in institutions, as you say, can not be trusted?

I have had truly awesome spiritual experiences on the tops of many mountains, or deep in forests untouched by man. Do not mistake my personal dislike of Christianity for a disdain of all things spiritual. We are, and will always be, more than just physical beings.

If a Christian were willing to do all the reading I have done, and research the history of the church, as I have done, and learn world history, as I have done, and came to different conclusions than I; well I would welcome that discussion. All too often I simply receive the cop-out of "You have to have Faith", instead of a rational and ordered argument for the existence of God as Christians portray Him to be...

[Millsley]

Well I'm glad you have balanced your objectivism with spiritual subjectivism! I'm sorry I didn't catch the general drift by your other posts, and I think we're more in agreement than disagreement here - I like what you said about what the Dalai Lama said.

I think the Christian church does have a very frustrating past/present and it has been one of the primary avenues for general ignorance thanks to a rabid grip on its own dogma throughout the centuries. It's too bad that many passages are given a black and white interpretation (made by fallible humans) which converts cling to even if that means acting contrary to non-judgment, brotherly love for all of humankind, rationality and all that good stuff. Ritual can certainly be used conscientiously to further the spiritual connection, but like I said earlier I think the unconscious psychic forces in play within the quite widespread Abrahamic faiths are currently doing more harm than good.

[StormKerr]

It has always interested me how the human perspective can vary when regarding something like religion. Some will use religion as the motivation to do good works and to try to improve the quality of life in the world (such as in the Peace Corps), while others will use religion as the excuse they need to attack and destroy.

Why is it that two people given the same circumstances and opportunities in life will arrive at such vastly different results? Two brothers raised in a dysfunctional home by alcoholic parents in a bad neighborhood grow up to lead similar lives, right? And yet one becomes a youth counselor and then an elected city official while the other becomes a drug dealer/user and falls into a life of crime.

Certainly there are good people out there who are devout Christians. My ninety-year-old grandmother is a Christian in the true meaning of the word-"little Christ". To live a Christ-like life is not harmful.
I only wish that the passion others feel about their faith could be based on some rational discussion. I wish that more Christians could look at the truth of the church and say something to the effect of
"Okay the Church has been inconsistent and hypocritical, and it has had some truly evil leaders do some atrocious things. But I choose to use this religion as a vessel for good..."

It is the unexamined life that is not worth living...