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Postby Millsley » Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:07 am

Michel, I hope you read and respond to my previous post, as I put a lot of time and effort into it!

Meanwhile, while I type this, there is a Muslim, somewhere in the world, that watches one of those 9/11 conspiracy theory and thinks: "Are the American people so rotten that they are willing to kill their own only as an excuse to invade Muslim countries?" He then feels so much disgust that he puts a bomb around his waist and go and kill innocent people in Israel or anywhere else. Bravo! The author of that video just did what Bin Laden asked him to: Increase th gap between the Western world and Islam!


Michel, please realize that you're making up an imaginary scenario, and the exact opposite is just as likely to be the case. While I type this, there is an American, somewhere... in the US, that watches one of those 9/11 conspiracy theories and thinks,"Well, maybe Muslims aren't as bad as I've been told to believe... maybe there is something else at work!" He then feels so much compassion for his human brethren who have suffered from the results of his countries' econo-military action around the world. The media and the President did just what they wanted to, increase the gap between the Western world and Islam enough to numb our emotions to the strife and despair we've visited upon the Middle East. (Bin Laden never claimed his purpose was to divide the sides... just to get one side out of the other side's personal business)

Did you know that, according to a poll, 70% of the Egyptians believe that 9/11 was the act of Mossad? If you ask them how they know, they'll say: "It's evident: There was not a Jew in the twin towers that day!"


That's ONE of the many reasons, and certainly all Egyptians are not foolish enough to believe that as the only one. So, the newspaper found a gullible fool to answer the question... what's new? By your previous assumptions about people who watch and believe this stuff, you've just attributed stupidity and moral depravity to 70% of Egyptians, ~30% of Americans, and hundreds of millions more people around the globe... and I know that deep down you don't really believe that, but that is what your words say here!

On the day of 9/11, I was devastated. My heart was crying, not only for my American friends, but for the entire free democratic world. I felt like going out and beating the hell out of the first Muslim I could find. But the day after, on the 12th of September 2001, I understood that the war on terrorism meant to invite a Muslim at home for a good meal and to learn about his culture. That would really piss off Bin Laden, wouldn't it?

You want to fight terrorism? Embrace a Muslim!


Sure! This is a great start. Convincing my non-Muslim friends that Muslims don't hate America, or freedom, also helps.

... now I am so depressed that I wish I never woke up on the 27th of July!


We're both talking about the same thing - HOPE. You're getting depressed by your subjective perspective on our viewpoints, but isn't it clear by the way we speak that we're in this together? We're glad to have you here Michel, but you're not putting yourself in as many happy shoes as you could be!
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Postby Michel » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:13 am

Millsley wrote:Michel, I hope you read and respond to my previous post, as I put a lot of time and effort into it!


Yes, I did, Millsley, but our postings crossed each other and I had to view the second (Addendum) movie.

You're right, we discussed 9/11 earlier; I forgot. At my age, I forget a lot; something you certainly understood by my repeating the same thing again and again! :oops:

Millsley et al: We agree to the end message of the video. But I disagree to the form of delivery! Here is a photo of me, my wife and a Canadian friend in 1972:
Image

I left Belgium to avoid the military service. I moved to Spain, to live in that little house on the mountain; without electricity or running water. I washed the nappies of our newborn son in the water of the well. Yes, I did tuned in and dropped out.

What I object is the delivery of the video: the critic of the establishment. This is the only thing that has changed during these past 35 years; I became acquainted with evolutionist psychology. We were gathering hunters where the best provider had the greatest chance to survive and was the most attractive to females. This is the reason we still court our ladies with flowers or chocolate in our hands and the reason Marilyn Monroe thinks that diamonds are a girl's best friend.

The video evoques the sweatshops of India. Why do you buy products from India or China and not ... Norwegian products ? (the most expensive you'll find!) Because your genes tell you that you must gather, collect, possess as much as possible. You and I are as interested to have as much money as the government: it's in our genes!

The only solution is to stop blaming others and realise that we are all in the same situation. This video is only showing the top of the iceberg: the real problem is that we are simply too many on this earth. We cannot consider wars or pandemics to solve that, we must have a plan and that can only happen if we have a form of world government and accept that if we are rich, it is because the third world is poor. A world government that works as a democratic communism; where we willingly share with each other and accept to live in a much, much simpler condition that we do now.

I am rich because I inherited a lot of money from my parents. Yet I have voted socialist all my life. Simply because I am convinced that the most important in our society is the right for everyone to have an occupation; charity is humiliation; a right to participate to the society is our foundamental need.

Yet I see in my country that the right wing gains more and more votes. People here, like elsewhere, vote with their wallet: No to immigration, no to welfare, no to taxes; I am rich and I don't want to share!

It all started by Fmonroy asking me what I think of that video. I felt you liked it and I didn't wanted to come to an argument but since it's done: I don't like it. It looks too much like those other depressive things one can see on YouTube. What's the point in getting depressed by knowing that Jesus is simply an newer edition of the sun's god of many other religions? Look at the half full glass and not half empty! Look at the message of love and peace in Christianity and forget all the bad sides of it!

That's all I am saying!

Cheers,
Michel
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Postby Michel » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:25 am

baidawi wrote:To fight terrorism we have to put things on this earth into perspective. That the Earth is abundant in resources, enough that NO PERSON should ever starve to death.... NO CHILD should die of hunger.


Exactly, my Muslim friend! 8)
But the economic system that makes that is not the one created by slimmy monsters with long greedy green fingers, but by us, the people of the earth. And if the Sudanese were richer than us, they wouldn't share either. It is in the human nature, in evolution, that we gather as much as possible.

Everyone here cross the border to shop in Sweden where prices are much cheaper. I don't because I don't understand why I should make a Swede richer. His taxes doesn't profit Norway. But if I see enough video that tells me my government is corrupt I might change my mind. And what was wrong is going worse.

A few years ago, our finance minister said that if everyone was to pay what they really owe to the state, the taxes could be reduced by as much as 17 percent.

Ask yourself; which country is best to live in? The country where people are honest and participate to the cost of keeping up the country, or the country where each one is thinking first about himself?

I rest my case, you honnour! 8)

Cheers,
Michel
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Postby fmonroy » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:44 am

Michel wrote:Look at the half full glass and not half empty! Look at the message of love and peace in Christianity and forget all the bad sides of it!
To understand the whole scenario we should see both points of view.

Society, church, ourselves, all has two opposites. That is relativity on action. One can not exists without the other.
CWG wrote:For in the absence of something else, All That Is, is not.
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Postby fmonroy » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:29 am

Guys, a sudden thought came to my mind, and I think it is related to this thread, sharing to you for comments:

Some years ago I listened the cover I Started a Joke by The Wallflowers. It strongly resonated deep inside me and got it. I listened to it sometimes while I was working not even understanding its lyrics.

One year ago I read this interpretation.

Any comments?

Oh, if I'd only seen that the joke was on me.
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Postby Rob Bryanton » Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:34 am

Nice! I agree completely with that interpretation of the song, though of course I'm old enough to remember buying the 45 by the Bee Gees when the song first came out in 1968.

This is something I've talked about a lot - there are certain essential truths wrapped up in the best pop music, and that is part of what makes it popular. Just because something is said simply doesn't mean it isn't conveying something profound.

Does that mean all pop music is profound? Of course not. Lots of it is about empty-headed lust, but since so many people walk around horny all the time that speaks to us at a profoundly primal level as well.

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Postby baidawi » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:59 pm

Michel wrote:
baidawi wrote:To fight terrorism we have to put things on this earth into perspective. That the Earth is abundant in resources, enough that NO PERSON should ever starve to death.... NO CHILD should die of hunger.


Exactly, my Muslim friend! 8)
But the economic system that makes that is not the one created by slimmy monsters with long greedy green fingers, but by us, the people of the earth. And if the Sudanese were richer than us, they wouldn't share either. It is in the human nature, in evolution, that we gather as much as possible.

Everyone here cross the border to shop in Sweden where prices are much cheaper. I don't because I don't understand why I should make a Swede richer. His taxes doesn't profit Norway. But if I see enough video that tells me my government is corrupt I might change my mind. And what was wrong is going worse.

A few years ago, our finance minister said that if everyone was to pay what they really owe to the state, the taxes could be reduced by as much as 17 percent.

Ask yourself; which country is best to live in? The country where people are honest and participate to the cost of keeping up the country, or the country where each one is thinking first about himself?

I rest my case, you honnour! 8)

Cheers,
Michel


haha - ex Muslim!

I would like to hope that at one point in time, humans weren't as dastardly. But as The Architect said in The Matrix: "hope is the quintessential human delusion".

That question about which country is best to live in is a tough one. I don't think I can answer that fairly.

Cheers!
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Postby fmonroy » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:08 pm

baidawi wrote:That question about which country is best to live in is a tough one. I don't think I can answer that fairly.
Maybe this? :D
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Postby baidawi » Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:11 pm

Sweet! Maybe after it's been in existence about 20 years...

Give them enough time to work out the kinks!
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Postby Michel » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:56 pm

I would like to ask those of you who approve the content of the two Zeitgeist films: What have you learn and what will be your response? Are you going to boycott the three banks mentionned? Will you try to change the corrupt US government with something else? In that case, from which political party will you vote next time? Will you work to bring the White House to court for enacting the 9/11 scam?

... because if I was to believe the content of that film, I couldn't stay put; I would go at war (verbal one, of course) with the US. If it is true that the US government fools every citizen by printing money that has no value only to satisfy their own greed, if the willingly put the world in several wars to gain on arms trade, ... those people in charge must face a trial that makes Nuremberg look like a kindergarten!

... but, do you really believe the film or ... do you just enjoy watching that kind of stuff? Just a question, friends!

Cheers,
Michel
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Postby Millsley » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:34 pm

Man you guys looked so frickin' cool in the 70s!

I don't see a problem with critiquing the establishment, because only by destruction of old patterns can you create new ones. You repeatedly speak of human nature, supporting the notion that our genes tell us we must never stop gathering, but this is a cop out. It makes progress take that much longer when we can blame our own developed shortcomings on Mother Nature, when the problem is within ourselves and the society we've created at the fundamental levels. Someone in the Addendum said it quite well; there is no human nature, only human behavior, and this ALWAYS changes. I'm a militant pacifist, but unless you stand strong for something you get pushed over. Human behavior is governed by fear/pleasure responses, but just because industrialism/consumerism has conditioned the behavior of those lucky enough to be in prosperous countries to be so mindlessly attached to fear of loss/pleasure of gain, does not say anything about this being genetic - it is behavior manipulation of genetic impulses, sure, but not human nature.

I don't blame others, and Zeitgeist Addendum is not (entirely) blaming, it is critiquing a faulty system. You really believe that too many people are on the Earth? Sure there are a lot, but this implies a resignation that we have to accept the destitution and strife laid out for many others. With the technology and expertise mankind has today, we could easily work together to construct a society that easily feeds, houses and cares for every man woman and child on this planet. It is a sad fact that with only $30bn, we could ERADICATE WORLD HUNGER. In perspective, the US alone spends around 20x that on the military. It is plain to see that military-industrial interests have been entrenched in US politics for at least half of a century and realistically, giving them a slap on the wrist every once in awhile hardly tames the beast.

We cannot consider wars or pandemics to solve that, we must have a plan and that can only happen if we have a form of world government and accept that if we are rich, it is because the third world is poor. A world government that works as a democratic communism; where we willingly share with each other and accept to live in a much, much simpler condition that we do now.


This is almost exactly what the Addendum proposes...

What's the point in getting depressed by knowing that Jesus is simply an newer edition of the sun's god of many other religions? Look at the half full glass and not half empty! Look at the message of love and peace in Christianity and forget all the bad sides of it!


I AM looking at the glass half full, and you are looking at the glass I'm looking at saying it's half empty while you talk about your glass that has the same amount! I've said it multiple times, but when the director is pointing out that Christianity is like almost every other religion (which all point to peace and love), this is essentially a UNITIVE message, not divisive.

What have you learn and what will be your response? Are you going to boycott the three banks mentionned? Will you try to change the corrupt US government with something else? In that case, from which political party will you vote next time? Will you work to bring the White House to court for enacting the 9/11 scam?


The real gem crystallized out of the Addendum is the realization that profit is in direct conflict with efficiency, sustainability and abundance. I had always realized this but had never put it in such a beautifully succinct statement. I already knew about those stupid banks, have my money in a local one and I never put it into savings because it gathers interest. The entire government is not corrupt (maybe just slow), but yes, something must be done to cut its blatant econo-political ties, and I only support candidates who realize this and don't condone it - hence voting for Ralph Nader. I'm pretty disillusioned by politics at the moment, which is why I try and spread this stuff through the internet. Change isn't going to happen because I voted for someone else to do it, change is happening when I successfully convince ONE person to re-analyze their values and commitments into a more positive framework for the evolution of human society. When this candle is lit in their hearts and minds, they cannot wait to light their other friends on fire, figuratively speaking of course! ;)

I've signed every petition to impeach the presidents so we can get them into court, and each one has had over a million signatures but most of Congress scoffs at the idea (God bless Dennis Kucinich). I don't know if it's really necessary anymore since their despicable actions are quickly becoming the past, as it may just be better to pave the way for the future by example. I'm writing a book on the synergy between faith and reason that I plan on giving away for free on the internet w/ donations, akin to Radiohead's In Rainbows album. Perhaps this will be more effective than writing long-winded posts on internet forums!
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Postby Rob Bryanton » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:56 pm

Put me down for an automatic sale on that book, Millsley!

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Postby Michel » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:39 am

Millsley wrote:This is almost exactly what the Addendum proposes...


Yes, I know that, Millsley. You and I want the same thing. I have nothing against "what," only against "how."

In life, I learnt that if I want to see action, I must go to my boss with a solution and not a problem. Allow me to take only one random example of the movies: It says that probably Jesus never existed. I don't care. But some do; all the Christians do. Once reading that, they'll loose interest and never get the final message.

I could write a lot about religion. Do you know why Belgium, my country of birth, is mostly Catholics? Because in the 16th century, the Spaniards were there and killed all the Protestants! The feared Inquisition; you've certainly heard of it.

But if you want to see some changes, you must get momentum and synergy from all possible sources; including the Christians. Wouldn't it then be smarter to appeal to them by focusing on the Love Thy Neighbour aspect of Christianity than irritating them by saying that Jesus never existed?

Right message, wrong delivery!

Cheers,
Michel
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Postby Millsley » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:39 am

I agree with you there, which is why I think the second film is so much more important!

However, I think that if Peter Joseph had made the new one first, it would not have been nearly as timely as it is today. People are more inclined to listen to something when the inadequacy of our current institutions to ensure stability is so blatant, and the reality of a new system is so easily within our grasp.

PS Rob - I'm giving it away for free... but I'll give you a 53,482,732% discount!

PS fmonroy - I held off on reading the interpretation of the song until I re-listened to it myself, and I thought almost exactly the same thing! I agree with Rob that even under a veil of simplicity, the profound lurks in its depths (sort of like one end of infinity reaching around to touch the other side).
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Postby Michel » Wed Oct 08, 2008 5:12 am

Millsley wrote:However, I think that if Peter Joseph had made the new one first, it would not have been nearly as timely as it is today.


But, of course, Millsley! And that's just my point! I aks: Is it really necessary to show the Saigon chief of police shooting a Vietcong in the head to get attention? I know that you have to wrap anything in gore in order to sell it today but is it wise? I know that kids love fairy tales with monsters that eat small children; I was a child too.

The point is; as long as we blame everything on the government, the weather man, our spouces ... just - the others, we will never get to the bottom of it!

The fact is that we are as we are because of evolution (or god's will if you are religious). We must accept that, yes boys like a good fight and play with weapons. Yes, we boys like sex and we all like money; the more the better! Yes, we will defend those who talks and look like us and beat the hell of those who are different. All that has an evolutionist reason.

But the only way to get out of this situation is to understand that yes, that's the way we are; we can't change Nature. But we can change Nurture. We can teach our children that they can play war games as much as they want but today, there are no more weapons on earth; it is a thing of the past.

Look at the world economy today. Isn't it happening exactly as predicted in the Zeitgeist Addendum? Yes, but the movie tells you that it is because of a quartel of vile people where in fact, it is the the fault of all of us! We all want to have returns for our invested money. We want more and the demand creates an offer: they offer us "products," i.e. investments that are not safe. If one bank doesn't do it, the other will, and the first bank looses its customers for the benefit of the second. It is as simple as that!

The only way to control our greed is to put in place laws that prevent them; for both banks; the "good" and the "bad" one. But then, we must vote for a party that is for a strong control of the society and that's why I am socialist and would even accept communism if it was a democratic one.

Apart from a dreamer like Michael Gorbashov, no one would consider a democratic communism. We want more money, more and more! We want the government to leave us in peace because anyway, they are all corrupted, etc. etc. ... and it creates a snowball reaction!

Do you see what I am getting at? This video has a nice end message but to get there it is feeding us with what we want: Gore and dirt and lies that makes us feel good: "What did I say? All corrupted! That's it, I'll try to evade taxes as much as I can! My money is not going to feed those corrupt idiots!"

It's much easier to blame the others than ourselves. But it won't solve anything, I am afraid.

Cheers,
Michel
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