Tzolkin date

[fmonroy]

Interesting baidawi, you and Michel share the Negotiation sign, but you are number 2 and Michel is number 3.

2 = Duality (Experiencing the differences between Ying/Yang)
3 = Action (Rhythmic to the core and are often restless)

What can you say about this guys?

[Michel]

What can I say about this? Well ... I thought it would have been obvious to you guys; I was born nine months after the Roswell UFO incident. You guys didn't even checked my date of birth? Geeez! It was so obvious!

So: TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER OR I WILL ZAP YOU WITH MY RAY GUN!

... okay, I'll shut up and leave the room!

Michel - the little green martian!

[fmonroy]

TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER OR I WILL ZAP YOU WITH MY RAY GUN!

Can you zap our leaders?

BTW, have you seen the movie posted by Millsley: Zeitgeist Addendum Released!

If you do, I'll wait anxious for your comments

[Michel]

BTW, have you seen the movie posted by Millsley: Zeitgeist Addendum Released!
If you do, I'll wait anxious for your comments

I wish you hadn't asked, Fmonroy, but since you did, here is the short answer: I think it is a very dangerous example of American paranoia. And yes, I saw it to the end. It doesn't help to show a photo of Gandhi and John Lennon.

Cheers,
Michel

[fmonroy]

always skeptic Only time will say

[Michel]

always skeptic Only time will say

Skeptic? I don't know, Fmonroy. I would rather say, the opposite. I trust my fellow humans. A friend of mine has called me once a humanist. I am not sure what it means but my very negative reaction to this movie is because of its lack of humanisme. Correct me if I am wrong but the movie says this: We, the people, together against the others! The others being the church, the government, the banks and basically all the people we love to blame for everything; this includes our spouses, the weather man, the police, ... the list is long.

I am a humanist and an evolutionist. I try the best I can to understand that there are no evil people out there and if some abuse power, it is indeed, those in power. One can hardly blame a homeless to be corrupt, right?

Now, I was sexually verbally abused as a teen by the church and today, I risk to see all my parents' heritage to vanish because a certain bank in Belgium has gone bankrupt. We are talking about the equivalent in bank deposit to two houses; a lot of money!

So, I have all the reasons to blame the church and the banks and any authority, as this movie does. BUT IT WON'T HELP!

What will is to keep our head cool and understand that we are all together in this and burning witches won't help. Stop blaming President Bush, the Muslims, the Large Hadron Collider for your problems; we can't reverse time and it is only when we put our efforts together that we will come to an end.

Indicentally, I am on Garry Davis World Government internet list. It is about time we understand that problems can't be solved within national borders. Our problems are global but as long as we vote with our wallet, we are going nowhere.

Publishing movies that show that 9/11 is the act of the US governement is sick and an insult to the intelligence of the viewers. It is the fact that it gets support by some that scares the shit out of me. The great danger we face today is that people who suffer from cognitive dissonance can feed their paranoia through the endless amount of information found on the internet. This really saddens me.

Cheers,
Michel

[fmonroy]

Skeptic? I don't know, Fmonroy. I would rather say, the opposite. I trust my fellow humans. A friend of mine has called me once a humanist. I am not sure what it means but my very negative reaction to this movie is because of its lack of humanisme. Correct me if I am wrong but the movie says this: We, the people, together against the others! The others being the church, the government, the banks and basically all the people we love to blame for everything; this includes our spouses, the weather man, the police, ... the list is long.

We should not blame the church, government, and the others for the problems, but ourselves by our lack of action... and, how will we act if we don't know? I think this film helps a lot on bringing those problems to our consciousness to make ourselves responsible of the way the world is, and, to take action based on that.

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

I think it is very humanist. And I understand that any change generates fear, and at this level, a lot of fear.

I am a humanist and an evolutionist. I try the best I can to understand that there are no evil people out there and if some abuse power, it is indeed, those in power. One can hardly blame a homeless to be corrupt, right?

Right, but those in power are the ones that have the widest range of action; we should not judge them, but we need to take action. If you had been in Mexico you know about corruption, but, can we blame our authorities on that? Of course not, we allow and foment that.

Now, I was sexually verbally abused as a teen by the church and today, I risk to see all my parents' heritage to vanish because a certain bank in Belgium has gone bankrupt. We are talking about the equivalent in bank deposit to two houses; a lot of money!

So, I have all the reasons to blame the church and the banks and any authority, as this movie does. BUT IT WON'T HELP!

I agree, I have similar problems, and I'm sure that blaming and crying won't help.

What will is to keep our head cool and understand that we are all together in this and burning witches won't help. Stop blaming President Bush, the Muslims, the Large Hadron Collider for your problems; we can't reverse time and it is only when we put our efforts together that we will come to an end.

Indicentally, I am on Garry Davis World Government internet list. It is about time we understand that problems can't be solved within national borders. Our problems are global but as long as we vote with our wallet, we are going nowhere.

Publishing movies that show that 9/11 is the act of the US governement is sick and an insult to the intelligence of the viewers. It is the fact that it gets support by some that scares the shit out of me. The great danger we face today is that people who suffer from cognitive dissonance can feed their paranoia through the endless amount of information found on the internet. This really saddens me.

I have no proof that all that is true, but if you think without fear, you see that all makes sense. When I was seeing TV at 9/11 the first thing I thought when the towers collapsed: wow, strange, like controled demolitions. Didn't you?

We should not believe in this blindingly, but ask our own questions.

[Millsley]

Are you sure you watched the Addendum Michel? It is extremely different from the original Zeitgeist (which I will agree, seems divisive). FMonroy, you're 'right on the money' so to speak;

We should not blame the church, government, and the others for the problems, but ourselves by our lack of action... and, how will we act if we don't know? I think this film helps a lot on bringing those problems to our consciousness to make ourselves responsible of the way the world is, and, to take action based on that.

Zeitgeist (and specifically, the Addendum) may seem like it's putting blame in places, but really it's just a collection of information, and the viewer can decide where to put the blame if they so choose.

You should really watch the Addendum. If you're saying that it lacks humanism, you haven't watched the right one!

And I really wish you'd stop insulting the intelligence and morality of people who believe 9/11 could be an inside job. You know I do, yet every time you mention it you talk with the same condescension you claim to despise (putting blame on blamers). Believing/researching that (and with enough good reason that's put into the official story which has 'justified' blame on extremist Muslims) is one way of hoping to end false-flag, red-herring attacks that have pitted humanity against itself for centuries. Cognitive dissonance is equally present if not more so in people who refuse to acknowledge the consequences of US/global econo-imperialism (and acknowledging problems is not a bad thing). The paranoid conspiracy hole is deep and gets incredibly fear-based (I can't stand Alex Jones), but if the information is used constructively and without bigotry it can be a valuable resource for not allowing the same mistakes to be repeated. I don't bother with that stuff anymore, but it had a purpose in waking me up to the higher purpose in life.

[baidawi]

I loved both installments.

[Millsley]

As did I, but I'll admit to being predisposed to the information espoused in the first one so the material resonated with me. I can certainly see why it would seem divisive from a certain perspective, although I think Peter Joseph's message in both is clearly an attempt to unite humanity. The second one however is much more accessible and the topic much more topical.

[Michel]

Are you sure you watched the Addendum Michel?

Was that another video, Millsley? I watched one, not two. If it is another one, could you give me the link, please?

I am sorry, I didn't know you believed in a 9/11 conspiration. Which one? There are so many of them; from simply that the CIA had previous knowledge to the idea that the five planes were drone. Perhaps it was Mossad who did it? Please write here on directly to my email address if you prefer.

Four days ago, two old ladies rang my door. They wanted to talk about ... global warming. I said: "No, thanks!" because they were two Jehova Witnesses on a mission to talk about Jesus. If you want to talk about Jesus love and peace, you don't have to scare people with global warming!

Likewise, if you come with a message of humanist view on a better world, you don't have to bombard the viewer with the most horrible video shots that exists. This is unethical.

I remember the film JFK, where real views of the assassination were mixed with filming made decades later. The fast succession of them and their repetition lead the uncritical viewer to really believe there was more than one gunman on the scene. This is manipulation.

To what purpose? When objectivity isn't respected, I loose interest. When it is done repetedly, I fear for the consequences. Those kids who get a gun and fire at everyone in a mall or school, do you think they also believed that the government was conspiring against them? I am pretty sure they do. Do you see the danger?

We are so damn lucky to live in democracies. We are the government and if they are wrong-doer, we can change it. We are lucky! Ask any North Korean how lucky we are!

If we are on a sinking ship, blaming the captain doesn't help; Start pumping, all of you!

Cheers,
Michel

[baidawi]

Although repetition is the main ingredient in propaganda, i think the video clippings used in this documentary were used to bring it in your face. I didn't get the sense that it was overdone.

Plus, if the overall message is one of anarchy, then I'm all for it.

[Millsley]

http://zeitgeistmovie.com - The Addendum is the film on top!

We had a back-and-forth on 9/11 in the Iran Attack thread about a month before your hospital visit - http://www.tenthdimension.com/phpbb/vie ... php?t=1377

Really I'm undecided on who was responsible for 9/11, but I've managed to notch one suspect off the list - extremist Muslim terrorists. I'm not foolish enough to brand "THE GOVERNMENT" for the whole dealie, as that it is a vast oversimplification. I'm a firm believer that economics drives politics (the evidence is quite simply overwhelming), and there are quite a few eerie economic events surrounding 9/11. Who made nearly $100mn on stock options betting the airline market would tumble? Why did Silverstein (the man who bought the towers earlier that year) get almost ~30 insurance contracts covering terrorism only months before, then collect ~$4bn, TWICE, for separate incidents? Am I expected to believe WTC7 seriously fell down into its own footprint from office fires, when no steel-frame skyscrapers have ever completely fallen from fire, before or after 9/11, besides those three buildings? My other reasons are summed up in our other thread, but there certainly had to be a few 'bad apples' within our own government, and Mossad is probably second or third place on number of assassinations and covert military action behind our reigning champ, the CIA.

I believe politicians and other government agencies were probably victim to misdirection - like the Qu'rans being found in almost every hijackers' rental car and suitcases that didn't make the suicide flight... has anyone ever read a mystery novel or heard of a red herring? Atta's passport being found on the streets of New York, barely burned?! COME ON! Compartmentalization of information, lots of money and greed go a looooooong way. The common response I hear is that it would need so many people to work out, which is really not the case. The other one is that 'somebody would say something' which is unlikely when the livelihood of their families and friends could easily be used as leverage to keep them silent. The dramatic overreaction to terrorism (which kills less Americans per year than peanut allergies) has funded an endless(ly profitable) War on Terror, which no doubt was an attempt to justify the massive US military budget (we spend more than half of the world's!). The economic motivations are pretty clear, and that's where I would begin the real search.

Likewise, if you come with a message of humanist view on a better world, you don't have to bombard the viewer with the most horrible video shots that exists. This is unethical.

I'd just like to remind you that this is exactly what happened in the week following 9/11 - but with a whole SLEW of fearful propaganda and unabashed accusations. The Zeitgeist film is just showing it once, and only to establish it's own point of view. I can see how the original Zeitgeist might not follow a humanist perspective (even if I disagree), but the Addendum is a powerfully positive piece of work.

I remember the film JFK, where real views of the assassination were mixed with filming made decades later. The fast succession of them and their repetition lead the uncritical viewer to really believe there was more than one gunman on the scene. This is manipulation.

Same problem here. This footage was shown over, and over, and over in the 60s with the media-sponsored message that kept trying to assure people it was just some crazy guy. This is also blatant manipulation. Bias is inevitable no matter what the medium, but when you harshly judge others for presenting their views while ignoring when it's used in other places, you're succumbing to cognitive dissonance.

To what purpose? When objectivity isn't respected, I loose interest. When it is done repetedly, I fear for the consequences. Those kids who get a gun and fire at everyone in a mall or school, do you think they also believed that the government was conspiring against them? I am pretty sure they do. Do you see the danger?

I think it's safe to assume that those kids who shoot up their schools had to have had their brains continually traumatized to reach that point. Maybe they believed in conspiracies, maybe they didn't - none of them mentioned anything like that, but I can assure you that plenty of people who follow conspiracy material are just as well-balanced as normal folk (if a little antsy about getting the crooks out of business). I think we have much more to consider in a culture that feeds a steady diet of consumerism, apathy, egotism and violence through the television than what someone decides to research on the internet in their spare time.

We are so damn lucky to live in democracies. We are the government and if they are wrong-doer, we can change it. We are lucky! Ask any North Korean how lucky we are!

If we are on a sinking ship, blaming the captain doesn't help; Start pumping, all of you!

Oh believe me, I wholeheartedly agree! That's why I'm trying to do what I do, but I've got a lot of work ahead of me if people automatically consider me crazy for using my brain differently than theirs! The real change is only going to happen when right thinking and right feeling reaches critical mass and cannot be contained.

I've been working on the ship for awhile, trying to convince people that those holes we have to keep repairing are from other ships shooting cannons at us, but sometimes it takes awhile! Why is everyone wearing a blindfold and earplugs?!

Oh and the Tzolkin... yeah it's pretty cool!

Me: Two - Duality, Eagle

Two - As mysterious as the question "To be or not to be?" Two is the recognition of the separation of self from all else and the desire to be rejoined. Walking a balance while making choices of all kinds, light/dark, male/female, good/bad, Yin/Yang is the energy of this number. Experiencing the differences between one and another is the use and purpose of this number.

Eagle - Intermediary between Heaven and Earth. Due to the Eagles' superior point of view and keen intelligence, they achieve material abundance and good fortune. A messenger gifted with patience and a deep sense of value, Eagle brings hope and trust on the wings of spirit. Eagle persons are very detail oriented and technically inclined. Compassionate service to others sustains prosperity for Eagle persons as the flapping of wings would sustain their bird brothers. If Eagle becomes viscously competitive or possessive, greed and jealousy cause a fall from the heights. Eagles, being blessed with freedom of movement, should be aware of escapism. Eagles may be tempted to just fly away from troubles by using indulgences.

A good day to - ascend to a larger perspective.

[Michel]

Plus, if the overall message is one of anarchy, then I'm all for it.

Okay. If a rapid repetition of ten times the same aircraft crashing in the WTC helps the cause of anarchism, you will have to explain that to me.

I have a good friend who is anachist, here in Norway. He never votes. And I have a US internet friend who is a devoted Libertarian. He doesn't vote either.

I'd love to read your views on how anarchism can rule the world. I am open to any new idea; political, religious or philosophical. Please, can you share your views with us?

Meanwhile, while I type this, there is a Muslim, somewhere in the world, that watches one of those 9/11 conspiracy theory and thinks: "Are the American people so rotten that they are willing to kill their own only as an excuse to invade Muslim countries?" He then feels so much disgust that he puts a bomb around his waist and go and kill innocent people in Israel or anywhere else. Bravo! The author of that video just did what Bin Laden asked him to: Increase th gap between the Western world and Islam!

Did you know that, according to a poll, 70% of the Egyptians believe that 9/11 was the act of Mossad? If you ask them how they know, they'll say: "It's evident: There was not a Jew in the twin towers that day!"

The truth is: There was Jews, and Muslims, in the twin towers that day. But who wants to verify? Who is objective? Who is interested by the truth?

On the day of 9/11, I was devastated. My heart was crying, not only for my American friends, but for the entire free democratic world. I felt like going out and beating the hell out of the first Muslim I could find. But the day after, on the 12th of September 2001, I understood that the war on terrorism meant to invite a Muslim at home for a good meal and to learn about his culture. That would really piss off Bin Laden, wouldn't it?

You want to fight terrorism? Embrace a Muslim!

... now I am so depressed that I wish I never woke up on the 27th of July!

Michel

[baidawi]

Well Michel, you may or may not be surprised to know, my name is real name is Baidawi andI was born a Muslim, my family is Muslim. I'm no longer a practicing Muslim, I no longer believe in religion. However, watching that video would never make me feel to strap a bomb onto myself and become a martyr in an attempt to rid the world of infidels.

Its a gross misconception that every Muslim has the capacity to be a suicide bomber. These fundamentalists are a minority yet, the media repeats the words Islamic Terrorists and Al Qaeda so many times, put it into so many movies i.e. Rambo, Iron Man that sooner or later you begin to think that Muslim and Terror go hand in hand.

A true Muslim would only resort to violence as the very last option. If it isn't evident to you that the American Government is capable of killing its own people, just take a look at Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans and you get a better picture of how the Government feels for its people.

When the US Government would spend billions of dollars to fight an imaginary terrorist group called Al Qaeda instead of feeding the poor, you get a better idea of how the feel. Just think... Saddam Hussein and Iraq had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the 9/11 attacks. Yet the American public were so blinded with rage and intolerance that it made no difference which Islamic country the US Invaded, just as long as they were attacking Arabs. As a matter of fact, if GWB came out and said Al Qaeda was hiding in Saudi Arabia, the American public would believe him.

I don't think anarchy can rule the world, but I know for certain that anarchy is the only thing that can bring this evil system down. This doesnt mean that the people should resort to violence, rioting and looting. There are many other ways of unsubscribing that would trigger a failure in certain sectors of the system.

The author of that video just did what Bin Laden asked him to: Increase th gap between the Western world and Islam!

That video, to me spoke about more than just Terrorism, to me it sought to let people understand the true nature of their existence. To see themselves as one instead of separate. That clipping of Carl Sagan towards the end of it resounded more with me than anything else.

To fight terrorism we have to know who the terrorists are. The terrorists are people who tell you that their are different human races. A blatant lie. Institutions that seek to exaggerate the differences between ethnic groups and amplify the similarities within the group to perpetuate the ultimate brand of separatist identification. To play on our fears and anxieties, to make certain that we pass these fears on to our children, giving life absurd ideas that we are somehow different because of our skin pigmentation or texture of hair.

To fight terrorism we have to put things on this earth into perspective. That the Earth is abundant in resources, enough that NO PERSON should ever starve to death.... NO CHILD should die of hunger. But the economic systems put in place makes sure that those with plenty keep getting more and those without, stay without.

Again, I don't think that anarchy can rule the world, it cannot. But it is the only thing that can counter the effects of this grandiose scheme for total world domination by a select few.