the 5th,6th and 7th dimensions

the 5th,6th and 7th dimensions

Postby serban » Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:51 pm

there is something i don't understand about these dimensions. if i understood corectly, the 5 dimension is all the parallel lives that a person can have, the 6 is a folding of these lives and the 7 is all the posibilities that could have resulted after the bing bang?! but this would mean that the 5 and 7 dimensions are tehnicaly the same thing, except that the 5 deals with a person's life and the 7 deals with the univers. but this cannot be a diference between 2 dimensios, it is only a diference of scale. i believe i didn't understood corectly, so could you please help me understand the diferences between the 5 and 7 dimension?
and if i am still asking, i would like to know if i understood the uder dimensions: the 8 are several parallel universes and the 9 a link between them?
finally, i have a method of time-travelling on which i would to know your opinion. apart from folding time to go from present to past, would it work to rupture the 3 dimensional space, create an indipendent portion of space, separated by the rest by such a rupture, and move it through time. it would be like if the 3 dimensional space would a sheet of paper, the 4 dimensional space-time, several such sheets and one piece would be cuted from the present sheet and push to another in the past. i'm thinking that gravity, which is acording to the theory of the curbing of space, a curbe of space caused by matter, could do this rupture and movement. would it work?
thank you[quote]
serban
 

Postby Rob Bryanton » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:20 am

Hi Serban, let me see if I can help you with my "new way of imagining".

The fourth dimension is time, and it has the same character as the first dimension: it is a line intersecting two points. My life or your life, from conception to today, is a very specific line. But that line is really only a line segment, and if you were to continue along that line to the past you would reach the big bang, and along that line to the future you would reach one of the possible endings of the universe, whatever you care to theorize that is going to be.

The fifth dimension, like the second dimension, allows us to perceive more than one line simultaneously. For my life or your life, there could have been other paths we could have taken, from conception to now, or from this moment forward. Any one of those paths, when viewed by itself is a particular fourth dimensional line, but to consider two paths is the same as considering two intersecting lines in the second dimension. And again, each of those lines are line segments. The line that extends to the past for my life, your life, and anything/everything in our universe still always extends back to the specific big bang which created the specific conditions of our universe, with very specific basic forces and laws of physics.

The sixth dimension, like the third dimension, allows us to consider three or more timelines, or the intermediate space between lines as a phase-space. For my life or your life, the moment from conception has a huge cloud of possible paths that could have been taken, and considering all of those in the sixth dimension would be like considering a rounded three-dimensional shape. Likewise, for the universe, there are a mind-boggling number of paths that could have been taken from the big bang to now. No matter what shape that sixth-dimensional cloud of possible universes has, it is still anchored by the specific initial conditions of our big bang. If a different set of initial conditions had occurred, resulting in a different set of basic forces, a completely different sixth-dimensional shape would be created, which is inaccessible (and in the vast majority of cases physically incompatible) to our own universe.

In the seventh dimension and above, we consider the universes that occur from other different initial conditions. Any one of those universe-sets would be a "point" in the seventh dimension, and that point would contain within it a completely different set of possible outcomes for time and space that would be that universe's own unique set of shapes within the sixth down to the first dimension.

Regarding your idea of rupturing time and space for time travel, that could be a way of accomplishing exactly what we're talking about here. After all, it's one thing to talk about "folding the fourth dimension", it's quite another to say how that fantastic achievement could actually occur.

Thanks for writing!

Rob
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Postby serban » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:53 pm

Thank you very much for your reply.

So the 7 dimension deals with several beginings of the same universe, right? And the 8 with other universes, each with it's own many beginings and laws of physics?

About time-travel, I thought of a posibil explanation why there are no time-travelers from the future today. If the 4 dimension is imagined as a line, then from the bing bang to today there is a line and as time pases the line gets longer. The line from today to the future does not exist yet. This is why time-travelers from the future are not here: they don't exist yet. When the time-machine will be invented, such time-travelers will exist. But there other such questions: why are they no travelers from other parallel realities or other universes to our reality and time? What is your opinion on this subject?

Refering to my method of time traveling, there could be an explanation for the temporal paradox, that which if one were to return in time to eliminate the reason that made him travel through time what would hapen? I believe my method of time-traveling could explan it: the portion of space-time ruptures from the rest of the universe becomes independent of it, along with every thing it contains. Thus if the main time-line is change by time travelers, they and every thing that became indipendent does not change. They could stop themselves from inventing the time machine and return into the future to find every changed, they would have the same memories and would completly the same. This is another explanation apart from that of parallel realities and 5 dimension. Both could be true, but this tries to explain in the condition of no parallel realities existing. What do you think about this explanation?

Thank you
serban
 

Postby Rob Bryanton » Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:34 am

Hi Serban, according to the image I've created here, each point in the seventh dimension represents a universe and all of its possible timelines. Each point, in other words, has its own unique set of first-through-sixth expression of matter and time which is inaccessible to the other seven-dimensional sets while you are in the dimensions below. I've talked about that "you can't get there from here" quality of the dimensions in another recent message on the forum.

Physicist Hugh Everett III's "Theory of the Universal Wavefunction" (also known as the Many Worlds Theory) suggests that all possible states for matter exist as a wave, and that the version of reality that we are experiencing is not really "collapsed", it is merely "observed" in its current state as a subset from that wave. I am extending that concept by claiming that "time" really is a full dimension, and that all of the other possible paths proceeding from this moment do actually exist as waves that become fifth dimensional branches.

Quantum physicists talk about "decoherence": the other states for matter have become decoherent at the macro level, and that's why we can't observe them. I am claiming that this "you can't get there from here" quality is also part of that same concept. So your image of "rupturing", I would say , is completely compatible with the image I'm portraying. Famous concepts like the Grandfather Paradox, are really part of the same idea as well - if we can accept the idea that multiple timelines really do exist, then free will is not an illusion, and any person despicable enough to go back in time and kill their grandfather does not snap out of existence or get caught in a paradoxical feedback loop: they merely branch out in the fifth dimension to a new line which is decoherent with their old timeline. From the fourth dimension (which we experience as time), the old path becomes inaccessible without entering a higher dimension.

Thanks for writing!

Rob
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Postby serban » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:12 pm

thank you for your last reply.

in my last message, i suggested a solution to the granfather paradox in the hipothetical situation in which there is no 5th dimension or going from one parallel timeline to another is not posibil. so what is your opinion on the idea that in that hipothetical situation, with no parallel timelines, if a portion of time-space would be separated from the rest of the univers, would the matter trapped inside become indipendent of the main timeline and imun to changes of history?
and as for the future timeline, i am thinking that unlike what is shown in SF movies, the timeline from now to the future does not exist. the timeline gets longer as time pases. this is why no timetravelers from the future are here today. but why are they no persons from other timelines or parallel universes since it is posibil that in one of this a machine to permite such travels has been invented? what is your opinion on this explanation for the non-existence
of future crononauts? what explanation would you suggest for the non-existence of visitors, sliders from other dimensions?
there is something which i find very probabil about the progres from one dimension to another. 0 dimension is a point, 1st is a line, 2nd ramification, 3rd folding then again 4th a line, 5th a ramification, 6th a folding... the 8th sevral points each being an infinity, 9th lines between tihs points. a cycle in wich point are united by lines, lines united by a folding, and everything contained in one dimension is a point for the next dimension and the cycle goes on. i find it thery probable to be mathematycaly corect that the cycle is infinit. it goes far after the 10th. but the diference is that from the 10th forward it is imposibil to say what is physicaly one of those dimensions. it is relatively easy to say that the 5th dimension for example is a multitude of diferent timelines, but for all the dimensions above the 10th it cannot be said what it is, but they exist. don't you think the same?

thank you
serban
 

Postby Rob Bryanton » Sun Sep 03, 2006 4:09 pm

Hi Serban. Personally, I have trouble imagining what the conditions inside a separate "bubble of time" could be other than being a part of a parallel universe. Would this bubble, like our own, feel that it had its own timeline of history stretching back to our shared big bang? Would it continue to have its own timeline stretching into the future which would continue to be selected for each of its occupants by choice, chance, and the actions of others? Or would its "bubble state" mean that it was somehow more limited in its characteristics than that?

By imagining a "bubble of time", I believe you are imagining exactly what I am imagining - a separate timeline, decoherent with and separate from our own, but with its own feeling of completeness. All grandfather-type paradoxes are resolved, because each choice, no matter how odious, merely starts down a new timeline which cannot have any effect on the original timeline where that choice was not made.

Since time for us is limited in a way that doesn't appear to allow for us to experience any more than one timeline at a time, then what I am proposing gives us a space for each of those uniquely limited timelines to exist within:
a fifth dimension of possible branches which, like a line drawn on a mobius strip, from the fourth dimension appears to feel like a straight line as it twists and turns in the dimension above, and
a sixth dimension which represents the lines which there is no way for us to directly branch to - like the universe where a quirk of evolution has caused humans to still have their tails, for instance.

Your way of imagining would still appear to have the same result as mine: that's because here in the fourth dimension, we remain unaware of the dimensions above. Likewise, your "bubble" would also be unaware of and be unable to affect any changes in the universe it had bubbled off from, and would merely feel like it was continuing to travel upon its own unique line from past to future. But to imagine that without also imagining that there must be a "multiverse" of other parallel universes, as you suggest, still feels to me like it creates other paradoxes. This is why I have become such a big fan of Everett's Many Worlds Theory.

Finally, here's what I think about the question of "why haven't we been visited by time travellers?", which I think is very similar to the question of "why haven't we been visited by aliens?". Let's take the position, first of all, that those things haven't happened, because there are of course some who believe that they actually have, and perhaps that our survival this far has been because of the benevolent interference of higher powers, be that time travellers, aliens, or a spiritual force like God.

The universe we are in is already unfathomably, astronomically, statistically unlikely to have happened. How did we make it this far? If we are to imagine the potentially catastrophic effects that alien conquest or foolish time travellers might have on our universe, then is there some way that we can imagine that all those catastrophes do happen, but that the quantum observers who are creating en masse the consensual reality in which we are participating have chosen (using their higher dimensional ability to see possible outcomes) to not travel down those paths? This must also mean there are parallel universes where atomic warfare destroyed civilization fifty years ago, or where the Y2K predictions turned out to be completely accurate. All those other universes exist, they're just not the ones you and I have chosen to observe: but other most likely did. How's that for a brain buster?

Thanks for writing!

Rob
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more then 10 dimensions

Postby serban » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:49 am

thank you for your reply
the dimension is a dot, the 1st a line, 2nd branching, 3rd folging and then again: time is a line, 5th a branching, 6th a folding then again: 7th a line, 8th a branching, 9th a folding, 10th a point
i believe that this cycle is infinit, but for the dimensions over 10th cannot be imagined a physical state, for example 4th time or 9th, a folding of the "lines" that unite parallel universes. the dimensions over the 10th can be imagined only in an abstract way, but they do exist, because the cycle is repetable in theory to infinit
wouldn't you say the same?
thank you
serban
 

Postby Rob Bryanton » Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:52 pm

Definitely, Serban, the cycle is repeatable to infinity, but I believe only as an abstract thought experiment. Start with a point, think of another point, draw a line, a branch, a fold, treat that in its entirety as a point, repeat the cycle...

For my way of imagining, though, I cannot come up with a separate point in the tenth dimension to draw another line to, because that point already encompasses every possible version of reality and every possible version of that reality's timelines and physical expressions. That is why I view the tenth dimension as being a threshold beyond which we can't go. But perhaps you're right, and that is just my own brain being too limited. I simply don't see where this "way of imagining reality" we are discussing here could go beyond that all-encompassing "point" in the tenth dimension.

Thanks for writing,

Rob
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Postby riknard » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:57 am

You've got a point, there, Rob... depends on what your definition of "reality" is... In my more flightful imaginings, I can see the 10th D depicted here as a grab-bag... what we imagine drops out, collapses from potential to more crystalized "reality". I have imagined, also, on another thread here, that there might be a similar "all-encompassing" reality set different from our totality (yeah, I know "all-encompassing" technically means everything, and nothing else, but, hey, its just a thought, huh..) that we could (or someone could) draw a line to at that level.

I was sort of thinking, in a way, of a diagram I've seen in several newspapers, not so much in magazines or lay or text books, of the universe we know and love being a bubble from another universe ... these bubble parent/child relationships going back to whenever/whereever, but always being generated from another one that already exists. They also branch out, so one could give rise to two, then those could be singly scioned for several generations, then another branching... If that's the case, (and just for a note for another thread, I feel God would be even more expansive and inclusive than THIS level) then each one could have different sets of "rules" that dictated permittable and exclusionary realities, not necessarily contained within the confines of our 10D model here. The gateway one might suppose (since I can't recall at the moment) would be, say, black holes. The "white holes" some talk about in some cases would be instead whole new universi. Each instance might be considered for a range of dimensionality as we are considering all that we currently know or suppose.

Just a thought.
>Rich

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-Japanese proverb
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Postby Rob Bryanton » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:36 pm

Hey riknard, happy 100th post! Thanks for helping to make this such a vibrant forum.

I think the "bubble universes" concept of one complete universe and all its component dimensions of time and space being somehow attached to or springing from our own universe is easy to tie into the dimensional model we're exploring here, since we're already imagining that a point in the seventh dimension would be the way that another completely-different-initial-conditions or completely-different-physical-laws universe would be defined. Here's a thought, then - what if a different point in the tenth dimension were defining other multiverse expressions that don't have 9 subsequent dimensions? What if a different point in the tenth dimension were defining a universe that had only 7.5 possible dimensions? I have to admit I had never had of partial dimensions until I read the book "Flatterland".

I guess if such an alternate universe could exist then you would have me - this would be one way of defining a different "point" in the tenth dimension. For me, though, imagining such concepts are like imagining an additional infinity of line/branch/fold triads extending up forever - I don't see how they fit with the reality I perceive and the theories I read about. Fun to think about though...

Thanks!

Rob
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