Infinity, Eternity, Endlessness & Number System

Infinity, Eternity, Endlessness & Number System

Postby spiritlrp » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:37 am

For many years the term ‘infinity or infinite’ has been used without much thought given to it. As a result it has been misused and applied incorrectly. Many get confused when working with a system that is endless, it does not matter if it is unique or repeating, and they label it infinite. Endlessness is a necessary condition for infinity but it is not sufficient. Mathematicians have a very limited definition and understanding of infinity in many of the systems they study. They hardly ever use the concept of ‘eternity or eternal’ which would be the correct fit for the systems they are dealing with. Because of this mismatch in concepts they are lead to all types of problems for which they have no resolve. The idea that some infinity is larger then others and some will fit inside others makes no sense at all. If infinity is the grandest, biggest, largest thing we can imagine how can you have one bigger then another??? For that matter how can you have more then one??? I know there is some systems when studied appear to lead to the conclusion that there are different sizes of infinities. Some of these systems appear as proofs and others as paradoxes but keep in mind the simple statements above: can anything be bigger then the biggest, can there be more then one of the largest, grandest, biggest.

Below I have listed the current ideas and understandings I have about infinity, eternity, endlessness and our number system. All of these conditions in each case are necessary and I hope sufficient but I am not completely sure as this is a work in progress and there may be some conditions I have overlooked.


Infinity:
There can be and there is only one. Everything is contained within it and there is nothing within the multiverse that affects it. It is independent of time, space and dimensions. There is no beginning and no end, no starting or stopping points and no center. There are no boundaries or limits and it is endless, all points are equal and equivalent from the infinite point of view.

Infinity is open, not closed: this is a very important point to understand. It means that if you travel in a straight line in any direction, or dimension you will never return to the point you started from or touch any point you have already passed through.

There is no center, no points of reference; all points are equal and equivalent. Looking from the infinite point of view one point can not be distinguished from another.

Eternity:
They share the same characteristic of endlessness as infinity but that’s where the similarity stops. There can be many eternities; the major difference between them and infinity is that eternities can have a center, boundaries, limits, reference points and in most cases are closed.

There are at least two types or kinds of eternities that I know of, cyclic and linear. The easiest to see is cyclic; circle, sphere or torus. Take the simple case the circle. How many times can you go around a circle, forever, endlessly, and eternally? If you choose a point on a circle or any closed system and move through the system sooner or later you will reach that point again. If this action is applied to a sphere or torus not only will the starting point be reached but also the path traveled will be repeated over and over again. In fact all the paths traveled will be repeated. This is the nature of closed cyclic systems. They are eternal and endless.

Most eternities have boundaries and limits from which a center point can be established. Starting and beginning points that also act as stopping and ending points can be established. There are different size eternities and the characteristics used to determine the size is unimportant from the system point of view. Most eternities are linked or associated with time and or space. The nature of the relationship is dependent on the characteristics of the eternity. Eternities can be entered or exited. A case in point is the atom. If undisturbed an electron will orbit the nucleus of the atom eternally. Until time or space run out. But if enough energy was applied to the atom the electron would leave orbit and go out into space. After the energy is dissipated the electron will once again enter another eternity orbiting around another atom.

Linear eternities are endless and have a center point and reference points like the cyclic eternities but they do not have boundaries or limits. An example of a linear eternity is our number system. Its center is zero. It is endless in any direction with no boundaries or limits but has many reference points. Each number within the system is a reference point to any other number in the system. That is the very nature of our number system and why it exists.
It is however not infinite.

Endlessness:
Our use of this term is one of the roots of the problems and paradoxes we encounter. Endlessness is a process not a state of being. It is a verb, not a noun. A system that is in the process of endlessness is never ending and continues forever but this alone does not mean that it is infinite. Endlessness is just one of the necessary conditions for infinity but it is not sufficient. Many have applied the concept of infinity to systems incorrectly. Many systems have been judged infinite when they are really just endless.

Number System:
For years mathematicians thought our number system was infinite, it is not, it is eternal. Example: How many numbers are there in the universe, most would say endless and infinite number of numbers? Well then how many numbers are there between 0 and 100, 0 and 10, 0 and 1. The answer is the same in all three cases - endless, infinite. (For any number you choose in any of the intervals I will just add 1 to It. 1.0 1.1 1.11 1.111 etc) But wait we know that all the numbers between 0 and 1 will fit between 0 and 10 and all of them will fit between 0 and 100 and all of them will fit in all the numbers in the universe. Does this mean that some infinities are bigger then others??? And if so what does it mean to fit one infinity inside another??? The answer is NO the number system is not infinite, it is eternal. In the case of the intervals: they have boundaries, 0&1 0&10 0&100 that act as starting and stopping, beginning and ending points. Because of the boundaries you can be sure there is a center point although you may not be able to reach it. Now take the case of all the numbers in the universe. True it is endless and has no boundaries or limits but it does have a center point, zero. This also acts as a reference point from which a change in direction can be determined and all other numbers can be referenced. This makes all other points unequal and distinguishable. The number system is also closed in the sense that any two numbers can be combined and will form another number that will be unique and different then any other number. The number system is a unique type of eternity, what I view as a linear eternity.

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Postby rivel » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:58 pm

Question, so what is a number then? just a unit of messurment correct? so messurments are enturnal but not infinate, but time is a messurment so time is not infinate? but time has no boundries, no points of refrence, no beginning, no end. if what u say is true then there is no such thing as time, just a concept of it. but if theres no such thing as time how come we can messure it.. time is a paradox that doesnt fit ur theory, but i like how u think
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Postby spiritlrp » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:10 pm

Hi rivel,

Time is a very interesting and complex concept for us. It is unique in many ways, so much so I have a hard time thinking about it as a dimension. Below are some thoughts I had about time, but being so complex there are many ways to view time.

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Does Time really exist?

Many have wondered about this question throughout the years. Let’s take a look at time and try to understand what it means to us, its characteristics and its properties. Time can be represented in a number of different ways with all kinds of units. From eons to micro seconds and even smaller units. It often appears as a speed or distance; a light year is a good example. It has often been said that ‘time is just flying by or time is just dragging by. It seems to go from one extreme to another or is it just our experience of it?

In each of the points above time appears to be representing or measuring something.
From this point of view it is very similar to temperature. Temperature is a method by which one measures the amount of heat present. There are at least three different scales used to determine temperature and all are equivalent at any given amount of heat. Clearly temperature does not exist; it is just a method that was developed to give us reference points for given amounts of heat. Could time play the same roll, just functioning as a method to measure the interval between events?

Heat has no opposite, there is no negative heat. Cold is a relative term and really does not exist. There is either the presents or absents of heat. It is a matter of degree. Is the same true for time? Does time have an opposite, or is it just a matter of the relevant amount of its presence.

Time has been considered the forth dimension but surely this can not be correct. Time is a measurement of the interval between events. Clearly we have focused our attention on the weaker factor here. Time is not the significant factor here events are. But what is the important of events? Change!! Change is the key, for without change there would be no time. All events would appear to be the same so they could not be distinguished from each other. If events could not be identified from each other the interval between them would not exist. It would be like going from point A to Point A. With no point of reference how would one know when they started or stopped.

Is time, the interval between events linear? It seems to be on the micro scale that we experience and measure it. But what of change, is it linear or cyclic? Well based on the work of many workers [Terence Mc Kenna, work, Time Wave Zero] to name one, change does appear to be cyclic and of a very special nature. Not only does change play itself out in cycles [wheels within wheels] but the cycles seem to be decaying. Time, the interval between events is becoming smaller and smaller. The cycle is a spiral in nature. As the spiral becomes tighter, time will become shorter and shorter until it reaches zero. No interval between events, all events happen at once. Hence no change, all is present at once.

So does time really exist, no not really, it is just a way of measuring intervals. Does change really exist, no not really. Both time and change are just gifts from God so that we can experience in this three dimensional reality. Through the experience of time and change both God and us are evolving.
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Postby rivel » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:59 pm

ok well this might fit better in the geometery section of this forum but you posted in there that there cant be a point, becuz a point has no dimension but in order for a line to exsist we need a point for refrence, but then can a line really exsist? w/ only 1 dimension it would be impossibly thin.. so we are left w/ a 3rd dimension, but just becuz we live in a 3D space does it mean that this is the thrid dimension? i dont think so becuz dimensions 1 and 2 would be impossible.. and time is just a concept so does that mean that there is only 1 dimension, but w/in that dimension there are relative dimensions which allow us to conceive of these other dimensions

but on a different note i dont think that "god" can be used in a science context becuz god comes from religion and religion comes from the unknown. these unknowns are filled in w/ unproven beliefs
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Postby spiritlrp » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:21 pm

Hi rivel,

I have often wondered about the line myself and it seems to be a subject where a our logical mind brakes down or at least has a hard time coping with the system we have invented. A line is defined as a locus of points but if points don’t have size then how do we explain a line?

I do not believe that God comes from religion. All religions are just mans attempt to understand God. I am a spiritualist and do not hold much with any religion as they all seem to preach fear in one form or another. Spiritualism does not and there is a big difference between spiritualism and religion. Most people see God in human form and that is ok because there is nothing that God is not but it does introduce problems; first it is very limiting and second it permits us to assign human characteristics to God which is a very big mistake.

There is nothing that God is not which means at times God is a process, a method , a system, a energy, a being, a consciousness. You name it and God is it, we are all a small part of God in the process of incorporating the experiencing state with the knowing state. To do this our consciousness, the God part has acquired a body, logical mind, and personality. We have also been given the ability to split, but not separate space and time so we can experiences spacetime different events. There is nothing {no-thing} in the multiverse that does not have consciousness. It is just a matter of degree or level.

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Postby rivel » Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:41 pm

so would u say god is entanglement? the thing that links everything to everything else
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Postby spiritlrp » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:01 pm

Hi rivel,


Entanglement, what an interesting analogy. I have never look at God in quite that frame of reference. But it does fit in some ways. From my point of view I do not see it as an equal entanglement. What ever God is or I should say what ever way God manifests Itself to us we will be just a small part of it. As our consciousness evolve we will become a larger part of it but it is hard for me to see how we could become the hole unless we merged back into It. It is my understanding that we always have a choice to do that. There are many, perhaps most aspects of God that our intelligents at this level can not comprehend. We have a problem describing and explaining concepts that we are aware of to day, yet God has created, applied and used these very concepts to create the multiverse.

To me this is just an example of how lucky we are to be entangled with God, the best is yet to come.

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Postby Relisys » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:10 pm

If God created everything then he must be nothing at all or more then everything. Becaus how can God create everything out of nothing ? if there is nothing then there can be no God (becaus he would be somthing) or he would have to be more then everything, so that he did not have to create himself. but how can you be more then everything ?

Now it seems to me thet i might have misunderstood you. If God IS everything, but did not create everything the problem is solved. Becaus he/it could have been created at the same time as everything else (or is everything else)
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Postby spiritlrp » Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:42 pm

Hi Relisys,

First let me say that you are posing questions that are at the limit of the current level of human intelligent and understanding. When you speak of everything, I am not sure we understand what everything is. Take for example the concept of infinity. No one really knows what that is. Sure we know some and perhaps many of its characteristics but no one that I know of has a complete understanding of it.

Lets list a few of the classes of everything; matter, energy and consciousness to name a few. Of the three matter is most likely the best understood yet we are still making great discoveries in the very small, string and M theory, and the very large black wholes.

Energy, we are so far out in left field on this one it is incredible. We do not even know all the forms it takes. Did you know that Love is the strongest form of energy in the multiverse. Through the use of Love as energy we can do almost anything, I know this from first hand experience. Today the common view of energy is one of power and force; well that is really missing the whole meaning of energy. Energy is potential; it is the juice that we use to create.

Of the three, consciousness is the least understood. Many today, perhaps most are aware of consciousness and that they have it [I AM or I AM that I AM] but they don’t know what it is, nor do most have the slightest idea how to use it.

Now if those are not enough to consider we can start thinking about the life and death cycle, reincarnation and the meaning of it. This by the way is better understood by some then matter and energy. We could also consider how Love holds the whole multiverse together.

Lumping all of these issues together we must realize that this consciousness which we are all part of and many label God used all of these issues to create the multiverse with a thought. All because IT realized that knowing was not enough, it desired experience.

At this stage of our evolution we should all be aware that there are things that we don’t know, there are things out there that we know that we don’t know ant then there are things that we have no hope of knowing that we don’t know about. But as we evolve we will get it all. And being part of this consciousness we call God it will not be a matter of learning [although it will appear to many that way] but one of remembering. Because to truly experience something for the first time one can not remember what it is

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spiritlrp hunter statementPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:42 pm

Postby Manohar Tilak » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:39 am

Manohar Tilak author of 1998 book "Infinities to Eternities" (ITE) writes humbly:
I am very intrigued by this Forum.
Theory of Everything is contained in ITE.which goes through the entirety of The Evolutionary Existence of
Cosmos as Being = the spirit = The Universe,
; which has to remain open so that it is not short changed by blind faith. The book on page 178 Paragraph 2
states the problem mentioned by Philosopher Bertrand Russel.....
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Postby guidewire » Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:28 pm

I was talking with a friend yesterday about Martin Heidegger. I read "An introduction to Metaphysics" by him...and I was trying to find one of my friends suggested books...
heres one...somewhat related:
[url]http://www.google.ca/books?id=FdHTd90Oc5gC&pg=PA1&dq=martin+heidegger&ei=JSXwRrX6NZPWoQKP09yJBQ&sig=7cN_KJurPfWKyM053TEzklSi4LY#PPA75,M1
[/url]

I think the main book is called "On Being and Time"
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Postby fmonroy » Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:23 pm

spiritlrp, I'm impressed with your ideas about all this thread, is there any way to contact you? email or something?
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Postby ogo08 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:51 am

spiritlrp, you your self are limiting infinity in trying to not limit it. You have to tho, it is impossible to complete understand the idea, because it doesn't exist.
when you said that you can not travel around a sphere without touching touching the same point twice. That is limiting a point, who is to say that i actually was a really really small distance away from a point i traveled before. maybe i was infinitely small distance away from it. But if it truly was an infinitely small distance i would never actually move, thus proving infinity doesn't exist. You might ask, is not infinitely small zero? I say it is and that is my point. You will understand this when you understand why infinity can not exist. We can not define it, only imagine further into it. But to get anywhere we must travel finite distances. What you are trying to describe is a system that contains all other systems, this is not possible. I think we should just discuss more about infinity making "more" of it exist.
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Postby ogo08 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:01 am

Here is something to think about, If i have an unbounded plane and mark a bounded section with two defined points. Then i say there are an infinite number of defined points between. Would it be possible for me to pick a point between the two marked, and that NOT be one of those infinite points between?
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Postby spiritlrp » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:08 pm

Hi fmonroy,

Sorry for the delay, I can be reached at spiritlrp@msn.com. This address may change in the next few days as I am using a new internet system and I have to change my address.

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