Slight mistake in chapter 1

Slight mistake in chapter 1

Postby MacGyver » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:09 am

In Illustration 6b you say...
We can imagine our fourth-dimensional selves branching out from our current moment in the fifth dimension, but no matter where you go from here the "great child inventor" timeline is not one of the available options in your current version of time -- "you can't get there from here" -- no matter how much choice, chance, and the actions of others become involved.

However, then you say in 6c...
There are only two ways you could get to that world -- one would be to travel back in time, somehow trigger the key events that caused you to come up with your invention, then travel forward in the fifth dimension to see one of the possible new worlds that might have resulted.


See the contradiction there? In 6b, where we've already traveled back in time to our childhood, you say traveling forward in time can't get us to the future where we become rich because of our invention, no matter what we do. Then, in 6c, you say the opposite. You say that we can trigger the events that could lead to that future.

I think the solution would be to leave out the part after "you can't get there from here" in 6b. If you did this the contradiction would be eliminated, because you'd be demonstrating that no matter how much time traveling you did, the rich future can't exist without actually making it happen yourself. That without manually triggering the events, the fifth-dimensional line where you become rich, doesn't exist in that version of time, and indeed can't exist.

There's also the possibility that I'm misunderstanding something about this, which is leading me to the apparent contradiction. If that's the case, I can't wait to here what I have wrong.

Anyway, great book, I love the ideas, and I'm definitely going to stick with this forum and this project. :D
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Alva Edison
MacGyver
hunter
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:13 am
Location: Milkyway Galaxy

Postby Rob Bryanton » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:47 am

Hi MacGyver, thanks for your kind words. Let's look at the issue you've raised.

What do I mean by the "great child inventor timeline"? From the fourth dimension, that line would appear to be one single path. You invent something as a child, the invention makes you wealthy and famous as an adult. Choose a point on the fourth dimensional line, just a few minutes after you as a child came up with the invention. Is there only one possible outcome from that moment forward? A hard determinist would say "yes". There are, of course, a great many scenarios that could happen from that moment in time - you could say "I'm just a kid, no one will listen to me" and immediately throw the invention away. Your uncle could steal the idea and become rich instead. Your invention could make you rich, but you squander your wealth and when the invention is no longer popular you could be destitute. No matter which of those outcomes came to pass, from the fourth dimension later on you would look back and say "yep, that's what happened after I came up with that invention". Thinking about the multiple scenarios that could have occurred after the invention, according to this way of visualizing dimensions, would require us to be within the fifth rather than the fourth, because the fourth only has room for one timeline at a time.

Since I didn't come up with a great invention as a child, there's no way for me to get to that version of the universe from my current position within spacetime, or the fifth dimensional spacetime tree of probabilistically/causally related timelines that extend out from my current "now". Looking at the first sentence you quoted, "current moment in the fifth dimension" is the important phrase - my current "now" does not include branches where I came up with a great invention as a child.
We can imagine our fourth-dimensional selves branching out from our current moment in the fifth dimension, but no matter where you go from here the "great child inventor" timeline is not one of the available options in your current version of time -- "you can't get there from here" -- no matter how much choice, chance, and the actions of others become involved.


Keeping in mind that the spacetime tree of possible pasts and futures has just as many branches before as it does after my current "now", I could now move through those branches to get back to myself as a child. In fact, Everett's Many Worlds Interpretation tells us there are a great many subtly different versions of "me as a child" that connect to my current "now", so the idea that there is only one path back in time or one previous version of me that could connect to "now" is also an illusion.

So in 6c, when I say:

There are only two ways you could get to that world -- one would be to travel back in time, somehow trigger the key events that caused you to come up with your invention, then travel forward in the fifth dimension to see one of the possible new worlds that might have resulted.


this is where I'm trying to convey that our fifth dimensional options are not limitless from any particular position - they still have to be probabilistically connected for us to get to them within the fifth dimension. By moving back to myself as a child, I can do something that creates a new set of probabilistic outcomes. When I get to the new version of myself as an adult reaping the benefits of my childhood invention, the current "now" that I'm actually in at this moment is no longer a fifth dimensional branch I can get to, without moving back again and stopping myself from creating the invention.

As I say in the animation, thinking about using the sixth dimension to "jump" from the version of me who is a prosperous adult because of a childhood invention allows us to see how we can jump outside of the logically connected branches that we are traveling along in the fifth dimension. But it's important to note that in that scenario you don't "become" the new version of you, you just get to go there and witness the more prosperous you - this is what is shown in the graphics. I suppose if you were to add on a Philip K Dick-style device that allowed you to implant your consciousness into other people, then you could actually "become" the other you, but that adds a whole layer of complication to the thought experiment, doesn't it!

In blog entries like the following I invite people to think of the fifth dimensional spacetime tree as a labyrinth, see what you think of that approach.
http://imaginingthetenthdimension.blogs ... -line.html
http://imaginingthetenthdimension.blogs ... cusps.html

and in entries like these I talk about the idea that there are just as many branches before our current now as afterwards:
http://imaginingthetenthdimension.blogs ... magic.html
http://imaginingthetenthdimension.blogs ... usion.html
http://imaginingthetenthdimension.blogs ... -eggs.html

Thanks for writing!

Rob
User avatar
Rob Bryanton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:10 am

Postby MacGyver » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:10 am

I guess it's this graphic that confuses me...

Image
(I've labeled the 2 men)

When you say what you do in 6b, are you referring to guy A rather than B? I know they're the same guy, but the distinction would make this a lot easier to understand. In your post above you seem to be saying you're referring to A, which would make more sense to me, yet the graphic clearly shows B as the one going forward in time from his current position, which is him back in time with his childhood self.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Alva Edison
MacGyver
hunter
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:13 am
Location: Milkyway Galaxy

Postby Rob Bryanton » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:54 am

Fair enough, I see why you're finding this confusing. The graphic you've clipped out here shows two branches coming off from the timeline right after it says "current moment in the fifth dimension". Those branches travel to dollar signs with lines through them, no prosperous future as a result of a "great child inventor" event because that didn't happen in the past, so "you can't get there from here". So you're right, there is a little visual cheat happening here - really guy A should be "current moment in the fifth dimension" and the branches to "no money" should be coming off of him rather than from the timeline before him. The reason I chose to represent it the way I do was to try to convey the image that those "no money" branches can also be thought of the way proponents of the multiverse concept talk about there being "versions of the universe where it's 2009 and Elvis is still alive". In the same sense, there are other versions of Guy A where it's 2009 and he's had other lives, but none of those other lives include the version where he's rich because of a child invention, because that event is not part of his causal chain, or as I like to say his current position within the fifth-dimensional spacetime tree.
http://imaginingthetenthdimension.blogs ... trons.html

Why do we see both guy A and guy B in the picture? Because there are versions of the multiverse where guy A continues to be the future for the child. Even when you travel to the past to become guy B (same guy of course, just a different timeline), there are still versions of the future where guy A didn't travel to the past, or where he did travel to the past but was unable to successfully pass the idea for the invention on to the child, so guy A will always be just one of the possible futures for the child shown in the diagram.

Thanks for pointing this out!

Rob
User avatar
Rob Bryanton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:10 am

Postby MacGyver » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:48 am

Thanks a lot! I really enjoy this project, whether or not I buy into everything (yet), so I'm gonna do my best to understand these concepts, probably for the rest of my life. It meshes so well with modern physics that it would be hard to abandon now after reading your book.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Alva Edison
MacGyver
hunter
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:13 am
Location: Milkyway Galaxy


Return to Imagining the Tenth Dimension: The Book and The Songs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest