Infinity, Eternity, Endlessness & Number System

Postby spiritlrp » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:19 pm

Hi indre,

There is not an infinite number of numbers between any of the intervals you sighted but there is an endless number of numbers in each interval. The point is there is a big difference between infinite and endlessness. Also using terms like 'infinity' or 'infinite' and ‘amount’ do not fit because the word amount limits the word infinite and clearly infinite has no limit.

I saw a very interesting example of infinity on the Universe series on the science channel today. They took a length of rubber tubing and placed a series of balls at different intervals on the tubing. The tubing represents space and the balls represent the galaxies. Now when the tubing is stretched no matter what ball you are standing on it would appear that every other ball is moving away from you, as a matter of fact the balls that are the farthest away from you the faster they would appear to move away from you. The point is that the balls are not moving at all, the rubber tubing is.

So maybe the universe is not expanding at all and all the galaxies are fixed in the universe. Maybe it is just space that is expanding and gives the illusion that the universe is expanding. So the question is which is infinite: the expansion of the universe or just space? Of course if you choose space then the next question is: what is it expanding into?

Spiritlrp
spiritlrp
hunter
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:25 pm

Postby ogo08 » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:12 pm

Spirilrp, there are an infinite number of number between 1 and2. also there are infinte between 1.001 and 1.002. name any two different numbers and there are infinite many other number that can be generated to be between those 2 numbers.
ogo08
hunter
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Where those are allowed to think freely

Postby spiritlrp » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:29 am

Hi ogo08,

Why do you have such a problem seeing the difference between endlessness and infinity? Perhaps if you looked closely at the theory of limits or the process of how the dimensions are developed it will make the difference between infinity and endlessness clearer.

Spiritlrp
spiritlrp
hunter
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:25 pm

Postby Rob Bryanton » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:52 am

http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/endless

Just for fun I went to Mirriam Webster online and looked for synonyms for "endless". They list some words, and then they say " see 'infinite' ".

So then I looked up the definition of "infinite" at the same site. As part of the definition they say "see 'endless' ".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/infinite

So in trying to define these two words, am I now in an endless loop, or an infinite loop?

:)

Rob
User avatar
Rob Bryanton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:10 am

Postby spiritlrp » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:27 am

Hi Rob,

That is indeed understandable because it is not like infinity and endlessness are not related to each other. Looking at the concepts from the 90000 foot level it would be hard to see the differences; as a matter of fact most would say they are the same. This is what I believe your search turned up.

But taking a much finer look at the concepts, one sees that endlessness is just a characteristic of infinity, a very important characteristic but just a quality of infinity. Endlessness is not a complete enough concept to describe all.

For example one can move in a straight line endlessly or one could travel around a circle or any closed system endlessly but clearly the two states are not the same. The straight line system could very well be infinite but the closed system can never be infinite. Yet both have the quality of endlessness and all closed systems will be contained in the one and only infinite system.

Spiritlrp
spiritlrp
hunter
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:25 pm

Postby ogo08 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:51 pm

im not the one misunderstanding the difference. Infinite can be used with amount. Thats what numbers represent, amounts. To move endlessly is to move infinite distance. endlessness goes with time usually, but it can be used other ways. The 2 words are almost the same thing, they just have a different connotation. you are having a hard time understanding what infinite is. i can say, there are infinite many numbers between 1 and 2. easy to prove, just pair each number with an integer. 1 goes with 1.1, 2 with 1.2, ect. there infinite many integer so there would be infinite many numbers between, 1 and 2. I understand limits very well, you should look at the definition of a derivative, the way it works is they find the slope of a point by using 2 points on a curve in essentially the same position. The only thing is the points are technically dx apart. hence, dy/dx.
ogo08
hunter
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Where those are allowed to think freely

Postby spiritlrp » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:33 pm

Hi ogo08,

We have been down this path before and I will tell you again if you just use mathematics as a yard stick you will have a very hard time gleaning the complete meaning of infinity. Put mathematics aside and consider how one goes from zero dimensions to the first or how one goes from one dimension to the second. One of the points here is that any given dimension at least within the first four, counting zero as one is not infinite. But all the dimensions together are infinite. Any given dimension is only endless but not infinite, at least within the first four.

With respect to mathematics, I have taught many different courses in college and understand its advantages and weak points. Math is indeed very powerful but it is also often very focused. So it is easy to miss the forest for the trees when relying on math alone.

Spiritlrp
spiritlrp
hunter
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:25 pm

Postby Rob Bryanton » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:48 am

This is why I've always liked the idea of infinity being "outside the system" in the Godelian sense of that phrase. There are many ways to approach infinity, but if you actually reach infinity you are no longer within our observed system.

http://imaginingthetenthdimension.blogs ... rains.html

In my entry "Infinity and the Boltmann Brains" I describe, one dimension at a time, how every single dimension can be extended to infinity within the visualization I've suggested. I'd be curious to hear your feedback on that within the context of this discussion about endlessness and infinity.

Thanks for writing,

Rob
User avatar
Rob Bryanton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:10 am

Postby spiritlrp » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:35 am

Hi Rob,

I read the article Boltzmann Brains and found it very interesting, possible and typical. It is possible but of course that is not enough I would like to know what its probability is? Typical because it is the straight forward scientific approach to a problem leaving out what ever they can not equate or put into mathematical terms, well of course they ignore them. So what have they left out this time, just a small thing called consciousness, the fact that I know that I exist and that I can ask questions about it. I AM that I AM. Brains are just a part of what we are, we are so much more. But enough about this.

I would not agree with you that zero is not a dimension; I believe that it is but a very unique one. I see it as the null set of dimensions.

I agree with you to a point up to the forth dimension. I do not see time as a dimension! True it incorporates the properties and characteristics of dimensions but I believe it is so much more. Note that what ever dimension you are at time always seems to be the next higher dimension. Time seems to have a similar relationship to dimensions as infinity has to endlessness. Just looking at the first three dimensions, time has the same effect on all of them equally.

By the way infinity is defined or thought of ‘the all of the all’ any given dimension can never be infinite but only endless because it is never complete. There are always other dimensions to consider until they are all gathered. I believe you are calling that 10. Now here is an interesting point, it is the same as the number trap we have been using as examples of infinity. If we limit our thinking to one or any given dimension it might very well appear to be infinite from that point of view. But in doing so what have we done; we have dropped out of the infinite realm to a subset of a given dimension. The same is true with the number trap. We focus on any given interval and say that within that interval there are and infinite number of numbers, forgetting that this is just a subset of the larger picture. However once we consider the bigger picture we see that there is a difference between the short interval and the larger domain and range. Much like the straight line and the circle or an open and closed system.

So how do we describe this difference? I use the terms infinite and endlessness realizing that endlessness is the subset.

I am surprised no one has picked up on this, I have dropped many hints; if one deeply considers the theories of limits and dimensions they will see that no interval can ever be infinite.

Spiritlrp
spiritlrp
hunter
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:25 pm

Postby ogo08 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:47 pm

Spirtlrp,
you are limiting infinity. Thats going against the idea of infinity being limitless. Im not using math as a yard stick, im just using it as a language to communicate an idea. people are always thinking infinity is always some really big thing, when it can also be super small. Like infinitely large, you can never reach infinitely small. If you did, you would be nothing and you would not be at all then. Infinity does not deal with only infinity is undefined in size, it really could be what ever you want to make it for the time being. think about it like this. I have a 1 m by 1 m by 1 m cube. I will mark 1 of the 8 vertexes as the start position. how many unique points could I define within that cube? Infinity many, thats how many. This is because i can always make a measurement with a little more "definition" by going out more decimal spots. SO that would be an example of infinity in a finite space.
ogo08
hunter
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:07 pm
Location: Where those are allowed to think freely

Postby spiritlrp » Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:30 pm

Hi ogo08,

You say that I am trying to limit infinity yet in your note you are trying to contain it within your '1 m by 1 m by 1 m cube'.

I am sorry with examples like that it is very hard for me to see your point of view.

Spiritlrp
spiritlrp
hunter
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:25 pm

Hotel Hilbert

Postby Rob Bryanton » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:16 pm

I stumbled across a blog post today from Maria Andersen, a college math teacher. Check this out:

Here's the song, Hotel Infinity, sung to the tune of the Eagles Hotel California, except that this is about the Hotel Hilbert. The lyrics were written by Lawrence Mark Lesser.

"Hotel Infinity"

On a dark desert highway -- not much scenery

Except this long hotel stretchin’ far as I could see.

Neon sign in front read “No Vacancy,”

But it was late and I was tired, so I went inside to plea.


The clerk said, “No problem. Here’s what can be done--

We’ll move those in a room to the next higher one.

That will free up the first room and that’s where you can stay.”

I tried understanding this as I heard him say:


CHORUS: “Welcome to the HOTEL INFINITY --

Where every room is full (every room is full)

Yet there’s room for more.

Yeah, plenty of room at the HOTEL INFINITY --

Move ‘em down the floor (move em’ down the floor)

To make room for more.”


I’d just gotten settled, I’d finally unpacked

When I saw 8 more cars pull into the back.

I had to move to room 9; others moved up 8 rooms as well.

Never more will I confuse a Hilton with a Hilbert Hotel!


My mind got more twisted when I saw a bus without end

With an infinite number of riders coming up to check in.

“Relax,” said the nightman. “Here’s what we’ll do:

Move to the double of your room number:

that frees the odd-numbered rooms.”


(Repeat Chorus)


Last thing I remember at the end of my stay--

It was time to pay the bill but I had no means to pay.

The man in 19 smiled, “Your bill is on me.

20 pays mine, and so on, so you get yours for free!”

lyric © 2000 Lawrence Mark Lesser, all rights reserved; May be sung to the tune of the Eagles’ 1976 #1 hit “Hotel California”.Previously appeared in Nov. 2004 Journal of Irreproducible Results, May 2001 Humanistic Mathematics Network Journal, Oct.2006 American Mathematical Monthly, Len Wapner’s 2005 A.K. Peters book The Pea and the Sun: A Mathematical Paradox, and of course, on Lesser's math song webpage

Maria's blog is http://tcmtechnologyblog.blogspot.com/2 ... inity.html
User avatar
Rob Bryanton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1356
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:10 am

Postby Michel » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:09 am

Nice one, Rob! I like it!

Michel

... damn, now I have that melody in my head. I hope it won't last ... for ever! 8)
User avatar
Michel
hunter
 
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:01 pm
Location: Norway

Possibly?

Postby NickX23 » Sat May 24, 2008 11:56 pm

I am new to this site as well as the ideas many of you have, but what I have read in this forum so far seems to have come to the point that, on one hand you have an infinite size, no point of relevance or anything. On the other there is an infinite amount of numbers/point in any given space. Would it be possible to have not one but 2 or even 3different infinities? One of infinite size and one of infinite but as the same time defined parameters? Also that would give the possibility of having one infinity being larger then another.
NickX23
hunter
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 11:46 pm

Re: Infinity, Eternity, Endlessness & Number System

Postby Cronndo » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:31 pm

Sorry for bring back this dead thread but I found this on a Sunday morning and was very happy to read all the things about infinity before the direct analogy with god was even brought up by the author to explain to the people that started using vocabulary or mathematics to argue the concept/definition he was trying to pose for "infinity". The author was very patient like a good teacher though and tried to explain the pointsvery slowly, very slowly.. endlessly you might say as ogo and spirit had to go over the same points many times for the bumbling ogo to see through his giant numbers and realizing he was trying to argue semantics through mathematics but I don't think his mind was developed enough in vocabulary to understand anything but the giant mathematical figures inside his mind during the conversation. Then the other guy with his definition from the free online dictionary and saying she was too lazy to read the first post really killed the spiritual mood for me too. The church like feeling I was getting sitting here in my house reading this forum was all before spiritlrp had to even use any actual spiritual terms in his posts to explain his first paper which was mostly in a mathematical tone, which was giving me lots of spiritual imagery.
I found this website today by googling "not just eternity but infinity" a quote by someone who I am still trying to find the name of in a movie called Waking Life. Thank you for enhancing my morning Spirilrp by writing about this subject. But the conversation between Ogo and SPirit is clearly just a difference between infinitely small points (endless vs. infinite as words in the English language) that Ogo wants Spirit to write endlessly on about but when Ogo adds it all up he will count each letter in the conversation and all the pixels it took to produce the image of each on your computer screen as evidence of infinite within infinite when its really just 2 endless systems inside an all encompassing eternal system.. :D And Spiritlrp showing unending patience for someone who doesn't even use their spell checker that is built into the forum. Where the will for this in his consciousness came from we may never know (post count? :lol: )

Infinite must be something outside of this System that can affect us but we cannot effect it. It is not a system itself for it has no points and cannot be measured, it cannot be moved because it has no points. We have points so we can move ourselves and be moved by The Infinite. Therefore the definition should be changed and so should the definition for endless and eternal for being qualifying factors in becoming Infinite, first you have to become endless and eternal, then you have to diffuse into something with no points.... then you become one with the infinite again from which you came from...

But it was like being at church and listening to a priest for awhile until the some other random lunatics around town took the podium and started rambling about their ideas in jittery words. :evil: Like they were possessed by evil spirits (words, numbers)
Cronndo
hunter
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:07 pm

Previous

Return to Imagining the Tenth Dimension: The Book and The Songs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests